Wathelet dispersion plan for Brussels Airport

[mad_fab]

Nice!

So they if my understanding is correct, they're forbidding the use of:

• the "route du canal" version 6 th february?
• LNO 3C
• SPI 3C
• PITES 4C AND 5C
• ROUSY 4C AND 5C
• SOPOK 5C AND 6C

So they explicitly forbid a fallback to PITES/ROUSY 4C and SOPOK 5C.
In short they want a come back to the "pre 6/02" within 3 months..

[lumumba]

1 You can not fly over a city that's not expectable.

You can't?

And just how do you think planes land and take-off at a little airport called London Heathrow then?
Any idea what a certain Lizzy of Winsor, aka Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth II, sees whenever she looks up when walking in the gardens of her weekend residence?
Ever been to the city of London and the western boroughs, where the really weathly live? Never looked up?
It's really very common for metropolitan areas in the world to have planes also overfly their city center: BRU simply thinks it needs to be the exception.

You have to be honest here you can not compare Londen City to Brussels Airport come live in Jette when a 747 is just taking off your house, we will not accept that.
And yes it's a choice like Strasbourg did they did not accept there airport to be bigger they prefer a good quality of life.
Here in Brussels we have nothing to lose very few people from Brussels work there.
Just try to speak French when you board and you will see the reaction!!!
And belief me I take the plane every month from there!!!

[mad_fab]

So they can still use the "left turn" SIDs, they juste need to fallback to the "pre 6/02" situation.

[tolipanebas]

You have to be honest here you can not compare Londen City to Brussels Airport come live in Jette when a 747 is just taking off your house, we will not accept that.

I am not talking about London-City, but London-Heathrow, one of the bussiest airports in the world!

Have a look for yourself what is right under the extended runway axes overthere...
http://www.airliners.net/photo//2480025 ... 6b90af0427
Indeed, basically the whole city.

And here's a view from a plane on a routine approach to one of those runways:
http://www.airliners.net/photo/Air-Fran ... bfbefb1bea
The palace in the green is the official residence of that same Lizzy of Winsor during the week, btw.

[tolipanebas]

So they can still use the "left turn" SIDs, they juste need to fallback to the "pre 6/02" situation.

I am not sure, because the reason those were abandoned in the first place was another bunch of lawsuits against them, remember?
This judge (just like a bunch of others before him), simply forbid a route: he did really give an alternative.
It's up to experts to see what possible alternatives are available (and haven't also been forbidden before), but my bet is we are running out of usable options here, other than those who create massive congestion because everything has to go along a single track for 12 minutes long.

[mad_fab]

Yeah, but, again if I read correctly, this judgement is banning the routes as they're used since the 6/02, so basically this doesn't say "no left turn at all" .

[tolipanebas]

Indeed, but remember, this isn't the only judgement so far, right?
You'll find tons of them if you Google a bit, many of them forbidding possible alternatives or at least giving that impression.

[lumumba]

You have to be honest here you can not compare Londen City to Brussels Airport come live in Jette when a 747 is just taking off your house, we will not accept that.

I am not talking about London-City, but London-Heathrow, one of the bussiest airports in the world!

Have a look for yourself what is right under the extended runway axes overthere...
http://www.airliners.net/photo//2480025 ... 6b90af0427
Indeed, basically the whole city.

And here's a view from a plane on a routine approach to one of those runways:
http://www.airliners.net/photo/Air-Fran ... bfbefb1bea
The palace in the green is the official residence of that same Lizzy of Winsor during the week, btw.

They never take of over Lomdon they Land that's another storie....

[tolipanebas]

They never take of over Lomdon they Land that's another storie....

My friend, take it from somebody who has aleady flown into LHR hundreds of times as a pilot: they take off from RWY09, just as easily as they land on RWY27, over the city.

LHR isn't as foolish to use its 2 main runways only in 1 direction like we do overhere in BRU.

Or are you suddenly okay with the idea BRU installs an instrument approach system on RWY07L and RWY07R? The NIMBY's in the south of BRU will love to hear that, as it means RWY01 can practically be decommissioned then, which interestingly enough is exactly what has happened in LHR too, many years ago when they closed their RWY02 and regained the land they are using to put up Terminal 2 on.

[mad_fab]

Indeed, but remember, this isn't the only judgement so far, right?
You'll find tons of them if you Google a bit, many of them forbidding possible alternatives or at least giving that impression.

Fair enough

[Passenger]

L'Echo has published the complete text of the court's decision (in French, the language that was used in court): http://static.lecho.be/upload/Le_jugeme ... 608640.pdf

Thanks André!

Although asked by the Brussels Capital Region and the nimby's (see their remark 70 in the verdict), it seems that the (sole) Judge has not added "ce jugement est exécutable par provision" (in Dutch "uitvoerbaar bij voorraad"). This would mean that an appeal by the condemned party (= the Belgian State) will automaticly suspend the execution of the verdict. Untill a final verdict by the court of appeal, and also if that final verdict isn't suspended by a third legal action at Cassatie/Cassation...

http://www.droitsquotidiens.be/fr/lexiq ... -provision

http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uitvoerbaar_bij_voorraad

[lumumba]

They never take of over Lomdon they Land that's another storie....

My friend, take it from somebody who has aleady flown into LHR hundreds of times as a pilot: they take off from RWY09, just as easily as they land on RWY27, over the city.

LHR isn't as foolish to use its 2 main runways only in 1 direction like we do overhere in BRU.

Or are you suddenly okay with the idea BRU installs an instrument approach system on RWY07L and RWY07R? The NIMBY's in the south of BRU will love to hear that, as it means RWY01 can practically be decommissioned then, which interestingly enough is exactly what has happened in LHR too, many years ago when they closed their RWY02 and regained the land they are using to put up Terminal 2 on.

Listen my Friend you are really not fair the end of runway 07L/25R is 8 kilometers from the City center in London it's 22 kilometers so please by fair!!!!
I'm not a NIMBY I just wanna sleep....and my kids too.
And when you have a747 in day time or a DHL 757 or a A300 flying over at 2:00 in the morning I say NO!!!!!

[Conti764]

You have to be honest here you can not compare Londen City to Brussels Airport come live in Jette when a 747 is just taking off your house, we will not accept that.
And yes it's a choice like Strasbourg did they did not accept there airport to be bigger they prefer a good quality of life.
Here in Brussels we have nothing to lose very few people from Brussels work there.
Just try to speak French when you board and you will see the reaction!!!
And belief me I take the plane every month from there!!!

Contrary to what you claim in a later reply, you sir, you are a NIMBY... You say you take a plane at BRU each month, but it cannot fly over your house. No, let those silly fools at Flanders take all the noise.... To you, BRU should choose to stay a small airport, let's start with ending your flight(s) and while we're at it, make sure the flights you take should be banned from all airports since you surely don't want to put other people in the situation you are fighting against.

Brussels shouldn't care about BRU since there are few french speaking employees. First of all, this a good example of how so many things get messed up in this country. Kill the airport? Sure, let the Bruxellois pay for the use of the ringway, end all rail activity and heavy transport on the road since it disturbs the sleep of people living next to railroads and highways. That will surely get us somewhere... Quality of life, you know...

Besides, what you say is terribly wrong. It is not because you, as a passenger, don't get in contact with many french speaking employees, that they do not wor at BRU. From cleaning crew, luggage handlers, people collecting empty trolleys, working at various food and beverage stands at BRU to service agents, more then half of them are french speakingand most of them come from Brussels.

[Conti764]

3 don't forget that 80% of the people working a Brussels airport are from Flanders .
4 Like for Liege Bierset Flandefs does not want fly over from that airport!!!!

Aha, you know all those employees personally? If you are right, I wonder why I spoke french most of my time at the airport?

If Brussels plays hard, Southern-Limburg should do as well. Ony fair, no?

[lumumba]

You have to be honest here you can not compare Londen City to Brussels Airport come live in Jette when a 747 is just taking off your house, we will not accept that.
And yes it's a choice like Strasbourg did they did not accept there airport to be bigger they prefer a good quality of life.
Here in Brussels we have nothing to lose very few people from Brussels work there.
Just try to speak French when you board and you will see the reaction!!!
And belief me I take the plane every month from there!!!

Contrary to what you claim in a later reply, you sir, you are a NIMBY... You say you take a plane at BRU each month, but it cannot fly over your house. No, let those silly fools at Flanders take all the noise.... To you, BRU should choose to stay a small airport, let's start with ending your flight(s) and while we're at it, make sure the flights you take should be banned from all airports since you surely don't want to put other people in the situation you are fighting against.


Brussels shouldn't care about BRU since there are few french speaking employees. First of all, this a good example of how so many things get messed up in this country. Kill the airport? Sure, let the Bruxellois pay for the use of the ringway, end all rail activity and heavy transport on the road since it disturbs the sleep of people living next to railroads and highways. That will surely get us somewhere... Quality of life, you know...

Besides, what you say is terribly wrong. It is not because you, as a passenger, don't get in contact with many french speaking employees, that they do not wor at BRU. From cleaning crew, luggage handlers, people collecting empty trolleys, working at various food and beverage stands at BRU to service agents, more then half of them are french speakingand most of them come from Brussels.

It's maybe true about the employees I was upset and yes even if the most workers are from Flandres this is not the point.
What will be the solution here is a external and professional point of vieuw here.
To most important is to avoid the city where a lot of people live.
And try to make a left or a right turn where there is less people living.
And yes it's impossible that there will be no planes over Brussels but it can not be as much than now!
Beside I can easily take a train to Paris and than the plane for the long distance flights I do Brussels has not much to offer but I do it because it's my airport.
Now you have to now that the last 2 flights I did not depart from Brussels for that reason, I took my flight to
Johannesburg from brussels Midi
And yes when you speak French at the check in desk they are mostly very rude.
I try several times I originally from Antwerp and when I speak Aantwarps than it's another storie!!!

[lumumba]

3 don't forget that 80% of the people working a Brussels airport are from Flanders .
4 Like for Liege Bierset Flandefs does not want fly over from that airport!!!!

Aha, you know all those employees personally? If you are right, I wonder why I spoke french most of my time at the airport?

If Brussels plays hard, Southern-Limburg should do as well. Ony fair, no?

You can find the official figures about that if I remember well it was 75% from Flanders 15% from Wallonia and 10% from Brussels

[flightlover]

3 don't forget that 80% of the people working a Brussels airport are from Flanders .
4 Like for Liege Bierset Flandefs does not want fly over from that airport!!!!

Aha, you know all those employees personally? If you are right, I wonder why I spoke french most of my time at the airport?

If Brussels plays hard, Southern-Limburg should do as well. Ony fair, no?

You can find the official figures about that if I remember well it was 75% from Flanders 15% from Wallonia and 10% from Brussels

And btw, it's not because they live in Flanders that they speak Dutch.

[Established02]

come live in Jette when a 747 is just taking off your house

No offense intended, but try to enjoy the (few remaining) 747s while you still can.

How many 747’s do you now have on a regular day? 2-3-4 perhaps? The noisier 747 classics are all gone. The remaining 747-400s still make quite some noise, but the 747-800s from SV are definitely playing in a different noise category. Same for the 777s from TG, 9W, UA and the 787s from QR, ET and JAF. For me the 330s are the most noisy ones among the heavies.

I’ve lived in the center of Jette for a while. That was more than a decade ago. The best view from my apartment was that on the departing BRU traffic. I guess about 1/3 of all departing BRU traffic flew right over Jette during that time. Personally the noise of the airplanes never bothered me, but as an airplane fan I’m probably strongly biased.

I don’t remember having been disturbed by the noise of the night flights in Jette either, but I’ve heard the sound impact of these night flights in other locations around BRU and I surely don’t take that impact lightly. I would not be amused either to have that over my house every night.

[sean1982]

Well, BRU is on flemish territory, I dont see the difference. The real problem is that the bilingual thing usually only comes from one group of people, the same group who has to endure all flights over their heads now by rule of the judge. I still have to meet the first walloon who orders his drink or icecream in flemish at the belgian coast.

[White Light]

1. The is no "Wathelet Plan". At best you can speak of the "So-called Wathelet Plan", because Wathelet applied the decisions made by the Leterme governments in 2008 and 2010 when Etienne Schouppe was in charge of Mobilty (both Leterme and Schouppe were CD&V = Flemisch christian-democrats), but to be complete I shall add that these decisions were also approved by the French-speaking parties in those governments.

2. Although I don't accept that people who decide to live in communes that have in the past traditionally been overflown by aircraft complain about the noise, It seems logical to me that people who have rented or bought appartments or houses in communes which were never overflown by aircraft now bitterly complain.

3. It seems logical to me that you try to avoid that aircraft fly over densily populated areas when other options exist.

4. Imho, the only REAL (non political) way out is for the federal governement to ask ICAO to appoint and send to Brussels a group of independent (non European) experts to recommend when and how take offs and landings should take place from/to BRU and that all political parties, regions, governments and citizens accept that these recommendations become binding.

5. At last, I really despise those luchtzak members who find nother better to do than to drift off topic and turn the whole question into a linguistic communities question. How petty and horribly Belgian !