future of BMI, SN to Heathrow

[NCB]

No NCB, it will not be a BMI A319. Don't say things when you don't know the facts!
It will be a Belgian A319, OO registered, indeed in *A livery. And I shall give a little hint, it will be an a/c that already flew under OO registration based in Brussels

My bad, skipped some posts I guess.

Good news then for SN, gradually replacing B737's in favour of A319.
A319 lease rates are slightly higher than B737's, but lease contracts aren't going to get any cheaper than they are these days, and the B737's will need to be replaced sooner or later, so definitely a good deal.
If they rotate A319 in the morning and Avro's in the afternoon, LHR should become profitable.

If SN could introduce some service to LCY it would be even better... If requested by competitors, aren't the AF group required to drop some slots at LCY due to their dominant position after the acquisition of VG?

The ERJ wetleases are perhaps the right capacity for the thin routes mentionned and probably better than bringing the Avro RJ's or BAe's.

[tolipanebas]

The A319 is going to replace one 737. I assume the leasing rate of an A319 is higher then that of a low cost configured 737. I assume (again ) that the economics of an A319 are better then that of an old 737, but then again, the leasing rate is higher and an A319 has fewer seats (10 less then a 733 and 32 less then a 734) so is SN going to raise the rates on the flights the A319 is going to operate or are the better economics enough to cater for the lesser capacity and higher leasing rates?

That's a lot of assumptions on your part....

I don't know if you have noticed, but you are actually working off 100% loadfactors by assuming it matters the A319 will have a few seats less than the 733 it will replace, which obviously is not going to be the case.

Also, whereas you take into account higher leasing rates, you actually forget the 737s at SN are all nearing a costly maintenance cycle and are set to be phased on as they approach that point, so although leasing rates on the A319 might indeed be higher (*), total operating costs for the A319 vs 733 may actually not take a hit at all.

(*): some of the older 733s of SN are known to be on very high leasing rates, because VEX signed for them during a peak in the economy, whereas today, there are some very good deals to be struck for replacement planes due to the economic downturn, so I wouldn't even automatically assume this.

Let there be no doubt about the fact that the 737s will ALL be replaced by Airbus planes over time... it would be foolish to think SN would be allowed to be the odd bird out within the LH group of airlines, with LH, BD, LX and OS all operating the small airbusses (Okay, OS has also some 737NGs, but they were inherited from Lauda Air and it will be interesting to see what happens once the leases expire on those, in 2011 and beyond)

[tolipanebas]

If SN could introduce some service to LCY it would be even better... If requested by competitors, aren't the AF group required to drop some slots at LCY due to their dominant position after the acquisition of VG?

There are indeed slots up for grap, but I don't think it would make any sense for SN to operate to LCY.
LCY serves only the financial city of London and when you're heading there from BRU, you better go by Eurostar really as VG found out: they went from 5 daily to 3 to just 2 and then finally closed the route, and they likely did so with a good reason!

Other European airlines like LX, LH or SK may have found a sweet spot at LCY, but they aren't facing such a strong competition from a short distance high speed rail link like BRU-LCY does, because they are no next-door neighbours from London, like Brussels Airlines is.

I think the only reason why AF is able to hold on to LCY despite the competition from the train on the Paris-London route is the fact that they have a HUGE intercontinental network; it would be interesting to see the final destination/origin of all pax on the AF flights to and from LCY, but I doubt you'll find many Parisians on it....

[regi]

Is there a possebility that SN or BD will start new routes between the UK and Brussels in the comming year? So 2010/2011? KLM has verry much daily flights to the UK like you said, so if SN will compete really hard, why don't start some new routes. Or am I to excited now?!

Since it seems we've taken over from SN's managers here (BTW, just joking and making fun of lack of clearcut communication from SN on this issue), any suggestions are always welcome...

What UK destination(s) were you thinking about?

I have really no idea about the market between the UK and Brussels and connecting to the rest of Europe but there are seven destinations that are operated by KLM in the UK that aren't operated to BRU. I will give you them and you give your ideas. I think some of them will really don't work for SN but I give them all.
-Aberdeen
-Cardiff
-Glasgow
-Hull
-Liverpool
-Norwich
-Teesside

I suppose that you mean Humberside when you say Hull as a KLM destination. To reach Hull, you still have to cross the mighty Humber estuary. Just a detail , not to ennoy you.
Humberside is a tiny miny little airport. But it is very important since the merger of British steel and Hoogovens in the group Corus ( now Tata ) For Belgians Humberside is no destination of any importance ( I go there every half year but I drive ) because we are related to Arcelor Mittal, the main competitor.
What Glasgow concerns, it is covered by Ryanair from Charleroi outwards.

Cardiff is also related to the steel industry of British Steel at Port Talbot (Corus as well). And with the anouncement that Tata will close down the Corus plant ( called Redcar ) at Teesside, KLM has no more customers there as well.

Aberdeen is not so important for Belgians as for the Dutch because we have no Royal Dutch Shell.
Remain Liverpool. I would say "yes" to that destination. But Manchester is just 45 minutes away.
And Norwich. Who flies to Norwich? I like the Colman's Mustard, but I can buy it at Delhaize
As far as I know, Norwich is only interesting for the Dutch because its airport is used, just like Aberdeen, to supply the oil rigs in the North Sea.

[flip330]

so better let SN operate the route with A319, 737 and Avros.

Indeed, except that it will be a BD A319 in Star C/S.
(LH is screwing SN!! 3 more acft on wetlease from BD, 1 SN B734 returned to lessor and the BAe146's remain on the ground!! Yeah yeah, SN is more important than BD Go tell that to the unions... )

No NCB, it will not be a BMI A319. Don't say things when you don't know the facts!
It will be a Belgian A319, OO registered, indeed in *A livery. And I shall give a little hint, it will be an a/c that already flew under OO registration based in Brussels

Now, guess all you want, but these are the facts...

Do you know specificaly what his ex - registration was?
I presume it will be an ex-sabena a/C ..

[RoMax]

I suppose it will be an ex-sabena aircraft indeed. Most of the A330's and A319's of SN are ex-sabena aircrafts. Is there another Belgian company that operated A319's? I don' t think so, but I am not sure. But wich will it be? And when will he come, before the start of the new summer season?

[sdbelgium]

Sabena had 19 A319s, now all but three are with other airlines.

Code: Select all

MSN   FMR REG    CRT REG    CRT AIRLINE
----  -------    -------    -----------
1048  OO-SSA     EI-DFP     MERIDIANA
1068  OO-SSB     F-GYFM     CCM AIRLINES
1086  OO-SSC     F-OHJX     NATIONAL AIR SERVICES
1102  OO-SSD     EI-DEY     MERIDIANA
1124  OO-SSE     F-OHJY     NATIONAL AIR SERVICES
1145  OO-SSF     F-GYJM     CCM AIRLINES
1160  OO-SSG     OO-SSG     BRUSSELS AIRLINES
1184  OO-SSH     OH-LVH     FINNAIR
1283  OO-SSI     EI-DEZ     MERIDIANA
1305  OO-SSJ     EI-DFA     MERIDIANA
1336  OO-SSK     OO-SSK     BRUSSELS AIRLINES
1364  OO-SSL     OH-VLI     FINNAIR
1388  OO-SSM     OO-SSM     BRUSSELS AIRLINES
1429  OO-SSN     N429MX     MEXICANA
1494  OO-SSO     HZ-AJW     SILVER WING        

[HighInTheSky]

Don't know the exact ex OO registration yet, but it is an Sabena a/c indeed.
Last update was that the a/c will be present in *A colours in April...

The A330 would come from an Asian carrier...

[RoMax]

Don't know the exact ex OO registration yet, but it is an Sabena a/c indeed.
Last update was that the a/c will be present in *A colours in April...

The A330 would come from an Asian carrier...

Whow, how do you now that?! I wish I had these kind of sources to.
Wich Asian carriers are flying A333's? And will lease some out?

[flip330]

Malaysian ... perhaps

Great for SN since the new 319 then will have the same amount of seats as SSM-K-G .

[HighInTheSky]

Don't know the exact ex OO registration yet, but it is an Sabena a/c indeed.
Last update was that the a/c will be present in *A colours in April...

The A330 would come from an Asian carrier...

Whow, how do you now that?! I wish I had these kind of sources to.
Wich Asian carriers are flying A333's? And will lease some out?

We all have our sources

Sabena recieved A319's from OO-SSA till OO-SSO. SSG, SSH, SSK are already in the SN fleet, SSP came from AF.
Quite a few are with Meridiana now.
I would have to check which ones will become or are available now or early next year.

The A330 won't be an ex SN bird, since Sabena only had 4 A330-300's, of which 3 are already back at SN (OO-SFM, SFN, SFO) and the last one OO-SFX is now the one from the Belgian Air Force.

So, keep looking for those (that) Asian carrier(s)

[SmilingBoy]

Must be SQ. They were planning to reduce their fleet, have the A380 coming in, and are owners of eight A330-300. On the other hand, all their A330-300 are quite new...

[RoMax]

These are indeed very new. And they are new in their fleet for only a few months to back-up the delays of the 787. So why would they lease out one now? But it would be good for SN because these planes are pritty new.

[teach]

I'm going to take a guess here and say it's this plane:

http://www.airliners.net/photo/1522382/L/

Reasons:
-it's leased;
-it's the only A330-300 VN has (so an oddball, which are usually the first to go);
-it's of similar age as SN's other A330s.

That's my candidate. It will most certainly not be an ex SQ bird, those are brand new, have RR engines, and if SQ gets rid of planes, they'll be the 744s and 772s, some of which are already starting to go.

[NCB]

If it's true and for sure an Asian carrier, then I'd put my money on Hong Kong: either CX or Dragonair.

CX have A333's on the delivery schedule on one side and the oldest early A333 MSN's, including former prototypes on the other side.Now's not exactly a good time for expansion, so any new delivery could lead to an old one being made redundant. CX has MSN 1132 booked for delivery, at current production rates it should be around 9 months from now.

Striking a deal with CX could play out quite cheap for SN, alot cheaper than talking to the lessors directly.
If they find an aircraft, they can send out a tender to the lessors and select the best deal...

[Buzz]

I suppose that you mean Humberside when you say Hull as a KLM destination. To reach Hull, you still have to cross the mighty Humber estuary. Just a detail , not to ennoy you.
Humberside is a tiny miny little airport. But it is very important since the merger of British steel and Hoogovens in the group Corus ( now Tata ) For Belgians Humberside is no destination of any importance ( I go there every half year but I drive ) because we are related to Arcelor Mittal, the main competitor.
What Glasgow concerns, it is covered by Ryanair from Charleroi outwards.

Cardiff is also related to the steel industry of British Steel at Port Talbot (Corus as well). And with the anouncement that Tata will close down the Corus plant ( called Redcar ) at Teesside, KLM has no more customers there as well.

Aberdeen is not so important for Belgians as for the Dutch because we have no Royal Dutch Shell.
Remain Liverpool. I would say "yes" to that destination. But Manchester is just 45 minutes away.
And Norwich. Who flies to Norwich? I like the Colman's Mustard, but I can buy it at Delhaize
As far as I know, Norwich is only interesting for the Dutch because its airport is used, just like Aberdeen, to supply the oil rigs in the North Sea.

It's not all oil and steel by far... A lot of British people use KLM, and thus a transit trough AMS, for airline travel, because either their airport has no connection to LHR (like most of the airports you mentionned, quite a smart strategy from KLM), or they just want to avoid a LHR transfer.

On a sidenote: their good UK network comes from the take-over of AirUK, renamed KLM UK and then absorbed into KLM Cityhopper...

[regi]

Thank you Buzz to give the other side of the medal. I looked at it too much from the current state, but forgot how KLM had become such a player to small UK destinations.

You are also right that many British try to avoid LHR. ( distance, costs, hassle )

Totally of topic: In that respect we should promote Deurne Airport, Liege and Ostend even more.

Same problem in France with Lille, which is very much unused. (because of the TGV )

[Boeing767copilot]

press release:

bmi suspends Brussels – London Heathrow service and
closes its Brussels office



Brussels, 8 January 2010 – bmi, the second largest airline at London Heathrow in November 2009 announced a restructuring programme having a number of important repercussions for the Belgian market:



· The last bmi operated flights on the Brussels – London Heathrow route will take place on Saturday 9 January 2010. From 10 January onwards, services from Brussels to London Heathrow will be operated by Brussels Airlines, but with a modified schedule.



· The bmi Brussels office is closed since 31 December 2009 and the bmi ticket desk at Brussels airport will be closed down on 09 January 2010.

For any inquiries, bmi can be contacted at +32 (0)2 713 12 86



bmi does continue the rest of its operations from Brussels Airport, offering up to three daily flights to Edinburgh, Leeds/Bradford and East Midlands. Out of Brussels bmi continue to provide flights via LHR to its midhaul network to the Middle East, CIS and Africa.

[regi]

Good news fellas!
Just got confirmation that my Qantas ( <BKK) flight connection LHR-BRU will be performed by the morning flight of BA , and not by SN. ( One World and Star Alliance are not friendly towards eachother )
( it was originally a BMI flight )

This will probably mean in practice, with a transfer time of 1h55 minutes: running !
And no luggage at BRU. But I am used to that , and it is sent the same evening by private van to my house.
So why bother about it? I don't let my blood pressure go up for some suitcases full of cheap Asian stuff and dirty underwear. So no waiting time in expensive and run down LHR. Great. Just undergo the torture by shouting BAA staff and back home in a flash.

I plan already to have my steak béarnaise & fries for noontime at my favourite local restaurant in Bruges.

[SmilingBoy]

Is the bmi lounge still open? I think bmi only operates flights to EDI from BRU now, correct?