Three Ryanair "emergency" landings in Valencia on same day

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Flanker
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Joined: 16 Jul 2011, 21:05

Re: Three Ryanair "emergency" landings in Valencia on same d

Post by Flanker »

teddybAIR wrote:
Bracebrace wrote:
...but ask any pilot how many times that extra fuel he took was actually needed and not many will have an answer.
With that logic we can also forget about emergency exits, life jackets, oxygen masks, fire extinguishers, emergency lighting, RAM turbines, etc. Let's strip 'em all and save some fuel burn!
Actually those items are the equivalent of the final reserve.
Extra fuel with no reason is the equivalent to equipping commercial aircraft with parachutes, and I haven't seen many aircraft fitted with them...

Bracebrace
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Joined: 04 Apr 2006, 00:00

Re: Three Ryanair "emergency" landings in Valencia on same d

Post by Bracebrace »

Tolipanebas mentioned 10€ to transport an extra 200kg? That's two passengers and luggage. Fuel-wise it only costs 10€ to transport two extra passengers on the flight? Ok. Fine (now I understand why Ryanair can sell cheap tickets)

So maybe that's true (I'm not kidding), take 10€ a flight... calculate the yearly cost for your own fleet and compare to "profit" your company makes. For Ryanair that would be 10€ * 290 * 6 * 300 (considering not all aircraft fly every day of the year) 5.220.000€ extra fuel invoice. Based on every single day being a really bad day, so the real number will be lots higher (a multiple). Yes I know the profit Ryanair makes, but I also know the loss many other companies make.

Aviation has to deal with some basic drawbacks, one of them is: based on cost/kg for development and transportation, aviation falls into the category of luxury. Compared to bus, car, train,... the cost/kg is a multiple of the other transportation means. You really have to very carefull when you increase your weights and it is funny to see how low-cost companies seem to be the only to implement this. Low cost only means low cost up to very specific weights. And the company does everything to try to keep that weight low on an operational level, because that's how they reduce fleet-size yearly fuel costs. On the passenger level, well overweight is going to cost you "over"charged money. The only exception I'm aware of is that Ryanair opted for stairs on their 737's, but that is only to allow a very dense rate of use of the aircraft (less costs on the apron, no waiting on slow bridges or stairs... which we all love to do don't we?).

There is one other company I know that has the same philosophy. Management has been able to get their pilots to understand this problem (probably because there is a different atmosphere), and the result is interesting: pilots actually take pride in being fuel efficient. They can take extra fuel if required (and they will), but the amounts turn out to be a lot less. And it's not really a company known for unsafe diversions... not at all.

Anyway, I leave it for what it is now. I don't think my collegues consider me "unsafe", I take extra fuel from time to time. I'm only trying to make collegues understand the consequences of "small" amounts of extra fuel. Do me one favor: if you take extra fuel, keep track of landing fuel and try to find out how much of your extra required fuel has been usefull to you to be safe :-). I thank you much.
Last edited by Bracebrace on 29 Aug 2012, 09:55, edited 1 time in total.

Inquirer
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Re: Three Ryanair "emergency" landings in Valencia on same d

Post by Inquirer »

jan_olieslagers wrote:
I understand why many companies forbid (sic!) their staff to fly Ryanair.
Must have more to do with FR's cancellation policy. The risk of seeing an employee disappear is low, and not much different among airlines, so I suppose employers wouldn't bother. OTOH no company wants to see its staff turning up late after a business trip.
It's not so much their cancellation policy really, but the way they operate.

At my company (30,000 employees), we are barred from flying Ryanair too and the reasons are trifold:
(completely off topic, so if not remotely interested in this, please feel free not to read it)

1- the complexity to rebook and reschedule ryanair flights, especially to earlier flights, which makes them a very inflexible travel option.

2- their constant nagging for extra money for often as good as must-have ancillary services which makes a correct dealing with a trip a painstakingly slow and labour intensive process for our internal accounting department, as it's very difficult to credit the total cost to the different business units involved, hard to stick to that pre-agreed budget and impossible to avoid manual corrections and cash reimbursement of personal expenditures for scores of "unavoidable avoidables" later.

3-their refusal to work with our certified travel agency, which is mandatory for us as they are the only ones able to offer us 24/24 customer support for the entire trip in case of yet another last minute change to our travel plans which brings along not just a simple flight change, but also a rebooking of taxi, rental car and hotels and any subsequent flights that may have followed after this one (including again the cars, and hotels etc), following any such a change.

Stij
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Location: Belgium

Re: Three Ryanair "emergency" landings in Valencia on same d

Post by Stij »

Working for an SME, we have the following rules:

Fly FR when possible to save money, but

- Never buy a priority pass or insurance or any other extra, you don;t need it.
- Never fly on FR with a suitcase (so no transport of spare parts or longer trips), to much discussions in the past.
- Never rebook a flight, just buy a new one, most of the time it's actually cheaper and then you have two chances.
- Only fly them when there are alternative flights from that airport / an airport nearby in case of a cancellation or change of plans.

And yes, we fly them a lot, mostly for day trips to Italy (BGY, VRN, TSF, PSA, CIA). And since TSF has an ILS... without to much trouble. We only book in advance for events like trade fairs, otherwise only when the travel plans are 90% sure.

Cheers,

Stij

P.S. When you fly them... bring headphones so you don't have to listen to the talking mall (I'm sorry Sean, but it really annoys me! ;-) )

airazurxtror
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Re: Three Ryanair "emergency" landings in Valencia on same d

Post by airazurxtror »

I have just taken two Ryanair flights to-day (both full) and I can tell you : I heard not a word spoken about that story of alleged missing fuel, nobody remembering it (despite the SN-inspired newspapers) or caring about it - me included. Not afraid of their own shadow, are the Ryanair users !
All this noise here and on similar forums don't reach the general public, sorry to disappoint you all SN supporters !
(both FR flights on time or early, both without the slightest hitch - that goes without saying)
IF IT AIN'T BOEING, I'M NOT GOING.

cnc
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Joined: 19 May 2009, 16:14

Re: Three Ryanair "emergency" landings in Valencia on same d

Post by cnc »

now lets all give airazurxtror a balloon and tell him what a good boy he is :roll:

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Airbus330lover
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Re: Three Ryanair "emergency" landings in Valencia on same d

Post by Airbus330lover »

airazurxtror wrote:I have just taken two Ryanair flights to-day (both full) and I can tell you : I heard not a word spoken about that story of alleged missing fuel, nobody remembering it (despite the SN-inspired newspapers) or caring about it - me included. Not afraid of their own shadow, are the Ryanair users !
All this noise here and on similar forums don't reach the general public, sorry to disappoint you all SN supporters !
(both FR flights on time or early, both without the slightest hitch - that goes without saying)
Are you paid by FR ? :lol:

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tolipanebas
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Re: Three Ryanair "emergency" landings in Valencia on same d

Post by tolipanebas »

Reading airazurxtror's last entry, it's obviously he believes in some global conspiracy plot and thinks he's called upon to warn the rest of the world for this great looming danger, all while showing to 'the evil forces out here' he's definitely one step ahead of them.... :wtf: :crazy: :wtf:

Brookfieldflyer
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Re: Three Ryanair "emergency" landings in Valencia on same d

Post by Brookfieldflyer »

This is what is really happening at Ryanair and which is causing all these problems:

FR crews are allowed to take extra, but to get it has become much stricter because of the plog+300 rule.
There's talk above about writing just a short word on the plog: that's definitely no longer the case!
Uplifts needs to be approved first now and occasionally gets declined, but more often qtys get cut.

What this has done is that it made a whole lot of cpts reluctant to order extra fuel at all, fed up with having to defend their fuel estimate and see it overturned or changed.

Greatly contributing to it all are the issues we're having with the new EU regulations and the consequences on the net pay: optimal solutions and possible unfavourable scenario's are talk of the day in the crewroom and with a company not sticking its head out for us "hey, you're a self-imployed contractor, remember", many here have taken an attitude of not caring any longer about the ryanair business either and just mind their own 1 man business now, just as MOL has been telling us.

If you bluntly tell people they need to care about their own business, some take it too litterally. Simple as that really.

fcw
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Re: Three Ryanair "emergency" landings in Valencia on same d

Post by fcw »

Sorry to spoil the party of the FR-bashers.
Read what happened to AF, BA and AA...
http://avherald.com/h?article=4555e531&opt=256

Passenger
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Joined: 06 Dec 2010, 20:54

Re: Three Ryanair "emergency" landings in Valencia on same d

Post by Passenger »

fcw wrote:Sorry to spoil the party of the FR-bashers.
Read what happened to AF, BA and AA...
http://avherald.com/h?article=4555e531&opt=256
Seems you've missed the most relevant quote from that report: "...It is currently not known what amounts of fuel were remaining after landing of these three fuel emergencies...."

Sorry to spoil the party at Ryanair, but at this moment it is not known if it was indeed a landing without minimum required fuel. Could be one of them was below, could be two below, could be all three were below. Could also be that none of them was below minimum required. All we know for sure is that one of the three Ryanair flights from this topic DID LAND below minimum required. And as tolipanebas explained before: the mayday calls by Ryanair were regular, but that one landing without minimum required was illegal.

So please wait to open the champagne till AvHerald knows what fuel was actually left. And even then: your reaction seems to confirm the strange safety standard with Ryanair: "we're not unsafe because others do the mistakes as we do".

airazurxtror
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Re: Three Ryanair "emergency" landings in Valencia on same d

Post by airazurxtror »

Passenger wrote: landing without minimum required was illegal.
And crashing without fuel is illegal, too. Between two evils ...

It just shows that it can happen to any airline, in exceptional circumstances.
IF IT AIN'T BOEING, I'M NOT GOING.

Inquirer
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Joined: 14 Feb 2012, 14:30

Re: Three Ryanair "emergency" landings in Valencia on same d

Post by Inquirer »

fcw wrote:Sorry to spoil the party of the FR-bashers.
Read what happened to AF, BA and AA...
http://avherald.com/h?article=4555e531&opt=256
Interesting reading indeed and the events are now widely discussed even though they happened only a few days ago and the news is online for only about 24 hours. In contrast to this quick reaction, it took several weeks for the Ryanair maydays to emerge and be discussed.

To me that shows there is no conspiracy against any particular airline at all as was claimed by some: what I learn from this is that when things go wrong, they will make it to the press and they will be openly debated and analysed in all possible detail, regardless the airline involved.

As somebody noticed on that avherald forum, it definitely is a good thing that fuel related emergencies are now clearly considered to be much more of an issue than they used to be so far, because contrary to other kind of operational emergencies, they more easily happen to several planes at the same time and can thus have significant knock on effects on the entire airline system, thus jeopardising the safe completion of other flights which happen to be in the same airspace.

In this context, I once again suggest the Ryanair fans to drop the calimero attitude they have demonstrated so far: clearly nobody singled out their airline at all; the general attitude towards what Ryanair still deems normal operating procedures has simply changed and the public at large doesn't feel it is such a minor thing any longer, righfully or not.

Finally, as has been pointed out already, we don't know yet if any of these 3 intercontinental flights landed with less than the minimum legal reserve fuel In Buenos Aires, (un)like one of the ryanair flights did in Valencia. So far we only know 2 of the 3 flights decided to declare a mayday due to them nearing their minimum fuel reserves, which if I remember correctly both Tolipanebeas as well as O'leary said was the normal thing to do for a pilot in order to avoid landing with less than the absolute minimum legal reserve, so just what exactly all this is supposed to disproof, I really don't know, other than what I have tried to make of it above, but then I doubt that was your aim, fcw?

Just accept that the general attitude towards what your airline still defends as normal practices may have changed completely unnoticed. You definitely do not want to be left behind on something as imporant as safety expectations from customers, do you?

fcw
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Re: Three Ryanair "emergency" landings in Valencia on same d

Post by fcw »

Inquirer wrote: as has been pointed out already, we don't know yet if any of these 3 intercontinental flights landed with less than the minimum legal reserve fuel In Buenos Aires, (un)like one of the ryanair flights did in Valencia. So far we only know 2 of the 3 flights decided to declare a mayday due to them nearing their minimum fuel reserves
AA and BA didn't divert and landed at an airport which was below minima, this clearly indicates they didn't have much fuel on board. AF decleared emergency so were tight on the fuel as well.
This is just an example that fuel emergencies happen on a regular basis and at various airlines as stated by Flanker at the start of this topic.

teddybAIR
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Re: Three Ryanair "emergency" landings in Valencia on same d

Post by teddybAIR »

There is a significant difference between declaring a fuel emergency because according to your assessement you might land with fuel below minimum levels if you don't ask ATC for priority and effectively landing with below minimum fuel levels...

but then again, let's just wait on the findings of the report, shall we?

Inquirer
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Re: Three Ryanair "emergency" landings in Valencia on same d

Post by Inquirer »

fcw wrote: This is just an example that fuel emergencies happen on a regular basis and at various airlines as stated by Flanker at the start of this topic.
Yet nobody contested that element itself, as it is indeed part of the problem solving method which got explained to us by professionals like tolipanebeas and even O'leary himself!

However the aim should be to avoid the problem from ever occurring in the first place, I hope you agree?

As such, it isnt the non-issue which you are quite eagerly trying to make out of it for the last 3 weeks now, especially not in light of the recently grown public understanding from the eyepopping ryanair case study that these kind of fuel emergencies are often not the stand alone cases they were once thought to be, but will often happen to several planes at once and can as such easily lead to systemwide knock-on problems and cascade emergencies even.

Maybe it is time to revise the thinking about all this, because in at least one of the three Ryanair cases, even declaring a full mayday did not save them from going below the minimum legal reserve, and that is really really really bad because it means the very final line of ryanair's defence failed!!!!

If it turns out that in either one of these other events you've brought to our attention the very same happened, then that constitutes even more proof that indeed the procedures need to be revised and the fuel allowances increased to cope with a much denser air traffic situation as we see it today, compared to what was the norm when these rules were first drafted, even if it means carrying more fuel on a daily basis and thus increasing operating costs.

I've said it before: Statistical sampling hints at there being a problem here, and every case added just increases the need to focus on it before luck runs out: remember that for one of the three Ryanair flights to Valencia, luck was all that stood in the way of an accident, as they were no longer covered by anything any longer.

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tolipanebas
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Re: Three Ryanair "emergency" landings in Valencia on same d

Post by tolipanebas »

Brookfieldflyer wrote:Greatly contributing to it all are the issues we're having with the new EU regulations and the consequences on the net pay: optimal solutions and possible unfavourable scenario's are talk of the day in the crewroom and with a company not sticking its head out for us "hey, you're a self-imployed contractor, remember", many here have taken an attitude of not caring any longer about the ryanair business either and just mind their own 1 man business now, just as MOL has been telling us.

If you bluntly tell people they need to care about their own business, some take it too litterally. Simple as that really.
RTBF is also reporting on the fiscal aspect as a contributing factor today:

http://www.rtbf.be/info/societe/detail_ ... id=7840704

The EU decision to close the backdoor to the most extravagant of tax-evasive practices both ryanair and its pilots have been using for too long (i.e. pretending pilots to be self-employed and having them set up a bunch of 1-man limited companies based in Luxembourg solely for this purpose), indeed may have some unwanted distracting side effects...


airazurxtror
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Re: Three Ryanair "emergency" landings in Valencia on same d

Post by airazurxtror »

http://www.iaa.ie/index.jsp?p=93&n=96&a=1214

18 September 2012: A delegation from the Spanish Ministry of Development led by the Secretary General for Transport met representatives of the Irish Department of Transport, Tourism & Sport, led by the Secretary General, with the Irish Aviation Authority in Dublin today (Tuesday) to discuss oversight of Ryanair's operation in Spain.
The Irish authorities gave an assurance of the IAA's rigorous oversight of Ryanair's operations and on their satisfaction with Ryanair's safety standards which are on a par with the safest airlines in Europe.
The Irish authorities extended an invitation to the Spanish authorities to send an expert delegation to visit the IAA and to be briefed in detail on the oversight of Ryanair's operations.
IF IT AIN'T BOEING, I'M NOT GOING.

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earthman
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Re: Three Ryanair "emergency" landings in Valencia on same d

Post by earthman »

Passenger wrote:The Aviation Herald has an update:

http://avherald.com/h?article=454af355/0000&opt=0
I can't really make out what the update is about?

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