Pilot shortage at Brussels Airlines ?

[blackhawk]

A lot of points are discussed no solutions can be given or found exept what they name in german " Fingerspitsen gefühl" feel in your fingers what you have to do .

As far I experience personnel department ( from snba)does not have any feeling to human beeings ( I applicated already 4 times for a job and only one time I got an answer) ./quote]

That was the time you checked your spelling, perhaps.

Even upon reading your posting only diagonally I came upon four spelling errors at least; if you wish to take part in an English language forum please begin by mastering that language. Not that your German is much better... And yes, fine language will add to the chances of an application!

Ok , stop this shitting and get back on topic. fftopic: If you guys would like to test your languageskills, perform some exames and we will see who is the best. As long as we understand eachother, it's fine to me.

[jan_olieslagers]

Nonono dear Mr. moderator you didn't take my point. This guy Carlcat is whining about not being taken serious by SN human relations department, well it seems obvious to me. Do you think she/he deserved so?

As to the correct use of language on this forum: if you do wish to tolerate bad writing, you'll be adding to our reputation of "snotapen, toogpraat, ..." I'll agree with you that good understanding is the first goal, but on a second note we ought to keep up politeness and fine language - it's a matter of style, really.

[blackhawk]

Nonono dear Mr. moderator you didn't take my point. This guy Carlcat is whining about not being taken serious by SN human relations department, well it seems obvious to me. Do you think she/he deserved so?

As to the correct use of language on this forum: if you do wish to tolerate bad writing, you'll be adding to our reputation of "snotapen, toogpraat, ..." I'll agree with you that good understanding is the first goal, but on a second note we ought to keep up politeness and fine language - it's a matter of style, really.

ok, I have your point. My mistake

[fcw]

for fast growing young companies like Brussels Airlines, it's obvious that there are growing pains, like staff problems. Last week, Brussels Airlines said that 10% of the pilots are leaving, compared to an average of 5%. Main reason: the expensive Belgian social security system, imposing high social charges on salaries.

off course there is a problem, and nobody denies it. But the problem is not like some of the leavers / almost-leavers want us to believe. And hé, why have you never mentionned that the fact that Brussels Airlines is booming, is also an important reason for the shortage?

Not at all LX:

Sabena had the same high taxes as BruAir has, but almost nobody left. If BruAir pays the same gross as Easy or Ryan people will stop laving even if net salary is still a lot lower lower, because commuting and living abroad costs a lot of money. BruAir salaries are below market conditions, this is the main factor for the loss of pilots. Pilots at BruAir don't want to strike as they know, very well, it would kill the company, but they are voting with their feet.
BruAir is not at all "booming" they added 1 A330 and 3 A319to their fleet in five years. The extra pilot need for these four planes is 40 pilots, so no big deal. An expansion of 10% in five years is not exactly booming...
The pax figures are nice, but not really impressive if you see that Ryan and Easy transport 100.000 pax every single day with a fleet only three times the size of BruAirs fleet.

[FLY4HOURS.BE]

I agree Bruair is not growing alot...
The pilot shortage is due to bad human ressource management...

But who gives a shit? It's their airline and they do what they want with it, and until now it's still flying.

For my part I wouldn t care whether the nation's greatest carrier is Bruair or Ryanair. Although it is difficult to admit, the golden ages for Belgian civil aviation are over and until someone new comes up with a new formula, I don't see it flourishing again in the next 5-10 years.

[tolipanebas]

For fast growing young companies like Brussels Airlines, it's obvious that there are growing pains, like staff problems. Last week, Brussels Airlines said that 10% of the pilots are leaving, compared to an average of 5%. Main reason: the expensive Belgian social security system, imposing high social charges on salaries.

Congratulations, you have managed to put 3 lies in one sentence: if you are not already, you definitely should start working for our external communication department.

First of all: Brussels Airlines are not a fast growing airline, in fact we are harldy expanding at all: 1 A330 (which isn't even flying yet ) over the course of more than 4 years: I wouldn't call that fast growing! For reference, some airlines are adding one widebody a month...
What we are doing is improving our miserably low load factors, from what is best described as 'half empty' to just about 'acceptable'. But whether the plane flies empty or full, it still needs 2 pilots to fly it, so your growth scenario which you try to prove with pax count figures is totally irrelevant: ZERO points for that one.

Secondly, it might be interesting to note that Brussels Airlines is comparing apples to oranges: the average annual attiration rate with REGIONAL European airlines is 5% indeed. Regionals like VLM, FlyBaboo, Luxair, flyBE, or Portugalia. Apart from the fact that there is also an average attiration rate for medium sized airlines like AY, TP, OS etc (more or less the same league as SN) and which would be better used by SN for comparison, the number of 10% is not on an annual basis, but rather on a 'till today' basis!
Since we are roughly halfway through the year, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out the real annual attiration rate currently is at a whopping 20%! For dummies: pure brain drain!

Thirdly, don't blame the evasion of experienced pilots on the high taxes in Belgium: the gross salaries at Brussels Airlines are LOWER than those abroad, so even if the Belgian government would forgo ALL income taxes as well as social security fees on them, the net wages would still not be competitive...

[Jester]

I am surprised, people use the salary as main reason to leave DAT/SNBA/Bru Airf .... YES! Also for me (F/O +3500hrs TT and +2500 on the wonderful Jumbolino) the money of my new employer was ONE of the reasons that I left. But having a family with childeren a better "quality of life" is also a good reason to leave a company!

"A time for payback" .. perrsonaly I think this is a bit to bold of a statement, but a lot of the guys/girls that left the company WERE loyal to the company and happy to fly there. But if you loose faith in your management and don't feel respected ... what do you do? Let them walk over you and become a bitter old fart? After the bankrupty of Sabena the company used the excess of pilots to blackmale the pilotcommunity ... "If you don't accepts these conditions... plenty of other guys/girls standing in line" ... and this attitude caused a lot of pilots to leave. This is something I don't find back in a lot of posts ...

One has to set his own priority and make a decission.
If I had stayed I would had a fourth stripe, if I passed ofcoarse. Now I am flying the Queen of the sky on the right seat for probably the next 10 to 15 years. And with the little that I earn more and the little extra time I have... I can fly my glider more often!

I hope Bru Air will florish and that my doubts about it's future is unjustified... especially for all my friends still flying there.

P.S. "G.CEO" still trying to find out who is who on this forum???

[LX-LGX]

it's really useless to discuss with people who deny the light of the sun (Jester: this is not about you).

Just one example: growth is not the total number of planes, like masterminds here say. Growth is an increase in the total number of pax and/or an increase in turnover. To say that there's no growth because the number of planes remains unchanged is economical nonsense. I hope you are more experienced in the cockpit.

So just admit: you are only interested in your salary. It's not a shame, Formula 1 drivers are also like that. Like most of our soccer players.

(speaking about Sabena: indeed, that was a glorious time for you. If you wanted a salary increase or another advantage, you just had to put out a strike warning - or to go on strike - and the minister paid (invoice to be sent to the next governement).

[flyavro]

OMG!!!!!!!!!!!!!

LX,
you really think you're the big cahuna on airline economics do you.

Growth is indeed measured also by the increase in turnover: but that is mostly independent of number of pax. It's not because you increase the number of pax by 10% that you have growth in turnover (if you decrease the seat price by 30%)
But from our point of view what counts IS the number of airplanes and not even the number of destinations. Like it is now if we fly more destinations (and I don't mean more different destinations but decreasing rotations on existing ones) then that same production will only be flown by the same pilots meaning more productivity.

The only way a pilot can get an upgrade in an airline is by people ahead of his position on the seniority list to retire or quit. So this has nothing to do with the fact that you may be a better pilot or more capable... This is not like jobs in an office where such factors should get you ahead (unlike in our company where being friends with important people is more helpfull). So please keep this facts in mind because for us pilots that seniority list is VERY important.

In normal circumstances the only way to rapidly advance on the list is if they buy new airplanes or if they increase the crewfactor. (for those who don't know what this is: the number of crew's available per aircraft).
Situation at Brussels airlines: NO new aircraft (except the 4th 330 but that one is being flown by contract pilots if it is even flying, because they found an even more brokedown Airbus than the other 3). The crewfactor has steadily gone down since 2001 from about 6 to a bit (and I mean really a very little bit) over 4. This might not seem like much but if you look at our complete fleet you get a bigger number. This is also an indication of the workincrease we endured.

I hear you say: but due to the big number of people leaving (if you're even already admitting that) you get a lot of opportunities. Yes and no. Yes the FO's ready for an upgrade can become captain, but there aren't a lot of them left and more than a few of those are leaving. Now they are going to wetlease a few aircraft and take on contract pilots: no more upgrades for those remaining loyal. They don't want to lower the number of hours required to become captain: legally 1500h but company rules 3500h. The reason our now luckily ex-DO gave: it's a difficult aircraft. So now they are thinking about upgrading Virgin-FO's and direct entry military captains (guess our managers want to give a present to their buddies in the army). If you don't see the bullshit dripping out of this declaration then you should get glasses. Agreed it's a difficult aircraft, it really is, but then don't put people in the right hand seat who haven't even seen an avro up close. A lot of our FO's have flown their whole professional life on the Avro so they do know the little bugger. PLus the Virgin FO's don't want to become captain on the Avro.

I's so easy of you to say we're only interested in our salaries. Get a life: everybody is interested in how much they earn. So it's not only soccer players and F1 drivers (really easy). Oh yeah and by that you are meaning to imply that we earn a lot of money: check your facts because you're the one giving wrong info to everybody. But just keep on repeating the same thing and everybody will only remember that and think we pilots are only in it for the bucks.
Shame on you and you are SOOOOOOO wrong.

Money is important but working conditions and the way a company treats his employers are at least on the same level.

Lx I guess you're management at our wonderfull company or work for them: could you please explain to them that they are not going in the rifght direction? They have been operating in a conflict oriented management style these last few years but this has been widely proven in a lot of scientific studies to not work in the long run. I fear the moment has come that the golden years for this way of managing has ended.
Even very motivated pilots are now angry and dissapointed in this company. This is a VERY dangerous situation as you can find in a lot of scientific papers on Flight safety.

Oh yeah your reference to Sabena: it's dead and it has cost billions to the Belgian state since it's bankruptcy. Whereas it was the milkcow of the sate before it went down. I fear our government made some miscalculations there.
Sabena was indeed a glorious time for us: because we had a real company with possibilities for a career and at least some respect for everybody working there, both sides.

So just for easy reference to all normal people out there who want to know why we are leaving the sinking ship:

*job stability (not having to fear another bankruptcy)
*growth opportunities
*money (yes it is important we have to be able to pay our mortgages also and be able to live)
*type of operations/aircraft
*social life
*working conditions (FT/DT, ...)
*respect (sounds stupid but try working under our management for a few years)
*being fed up by the incompetence of our management (mostly not the only reason )
...

I certainly forgot a few reasons so please guys fill it out.

Thank you all for your attention and have a nice flight.

p.s. jester: nice landings to you and see you soon if I have some more questions (but then under my own name of course

[FlightMate]

Bravo!

Great post, flyavro
I couldn't phrase it better.

[fly]

yep, couldn't phrase it better.......

[teddybAIR]

I'm sorry to say, but the real company you called Sabena has never been a viable company. It never got out of intensive care. Should that company have been a private company and have had the same P&L results...well, it would have filed for chapter 11 after a few years.

Back on topic now:

And please bare in mind that I am speaking as an outsider, thus consider this as a small piece of advice (for SN management): I am currently doing research on loyalty, well my advice is not to underestimate the value of loyalty. Both customer and employee loyalty are important if you want to gain a sustainable competitive edge over your competition which is - let's face it - focussing on LCC strategies. Brussels Airlines will never be able to compete with consistent LCC's unless it restructures dramatically. That is for the simple fact that it is still based on a century old structure that is not adapted to compete in this low-margin business.

Best regards,
bAIR

[flyavro]

hi Teddy,

I fully agree with you on the Sabena matter. What I meant was that the Belgian state got more money out of it than it put in. The money they got trough taxes on personnel, landing charges,... were huge amounts. Now a lot of those people who earned a lot of money (pilots mostly because their salaries were in another ballpark altogether) for the state now work in other countries and don't pay any belgian taxes anymore.

And of course couldn't agree with you more on your warning to our management.

[JOVAN]

hi Teddy,

I fully agree with you on the Sabena matter. What I meant was that the Belgian state got more money out of it than it put in. The money they got trough taxes on personnel, landing charges,... were huge amounts. Now a lot of those people who earned a lot of money (pilots mostly because their salaries were in another ballpark altogether) for the state now work in other countries and don't pay any belgian taxes anymore.

Indeed most governments in the world recognize the fact that having a National Carrier is a must, and an economical fact; not just a matter of national prestige.

Only in Belgium, we do not seem to understand that direct connections with the big world capitals , by a home carrier , is a must for business and tourism.

I still hope that SN and BRU will make it, but I am very pessimistic.

We have to be really jealous from LX, AY, OS ,... and ZRH, HEL,..CPH,.
..and the income they generate for their countries, the jobs they create,...

[JAFflyer]

hi Teddy,

I fully agree with you on the Sabena matter. What I meant was that the Belgian state got more money out of it than it put in. The money they got trough taxes on personnel, landing charges,... were huge amounts. Now a lot of those people who earned a lot of money (pilots mostly because their salaries were in another ballpark altogether) for the state now work in other countries and don't pay any belgian taxes anymore.

Indeed most governments in the world recognize the fact that having a National Carrier is a must, and an economical fact; not just a matter of national prestige.

Only in Belgium, we do not seem to understand that direct connections with the big world capitals , by a home carrier , is a must for business and tourism.

I still hope that SN and BRU will make it, but I am very pessimistic.

We have to be really jealous from LX, AY, OS ,... and ZRH, HEL,..CPH,.
..and the income they generate for their countries, the jobs they create,...

I must ask something here, why should Brussels Airlines get any benefits that other national carriers (Thomas Cook, Jetairfly, VLM, TNT) can't have? Just because they are called Brussels Airlines?

[flyavro]

ok this is getting off topic but just to answer your question:

every airline in Belgium needs to be treated the same so no special favours for SN.
BUT Brussels airlines is the national carrier (sort of) because they are the only real normal pax carrier. The others are charter or cargo companies.

I must say that if Brussels airlines is the national carrier/pride then we don't have a lot to be proud about. sorry.

Back on topic now please

at least 3 FO's resigned last this week at SN (rumours of more but none confirmed yet). PLease remember that the month isn't over yet.
All of them ready or almost to become captain (2 Air France and 1 Cargolux)
2 Avro and 1 Airbus.

There are 9 pilots ready to go to air france (including these 2) but waiting for a starting date.
First those two going now thought they had to wait 1 year before starting but it seems the frenchies really need pilots now too (so they only had to wait a few weeks for their dates).
Netjets will be receiving a lot of cv's these weeks also.

Oh yeah, remember the DO who had to resign because of the thing with netjets? seems that maybe he'll be going to Netjets himself as training manager. but nothing confirmed here.

CargoB also still taking a few pilots (mostly FO's).

It ain't over yet.

[JOVAN]

hi Teddy,

I fully agree with you on the Sabena matter. What I meant was that the Belgian state got more money out of it than it put in. The money they got trough taxes on personnel, landing charges,... were huge amounts. Now a lot of those people who earned a lot of money (pilots mostly because their salaries were in another ballpark altogether) for the state now work in other countries and don't pay any belgian taxes anymore.

Indeed most governments in the world recognize the fact that having a National Carrier is a must, and an economical fact; not just a matter of national prestige.

Only in Belgium, we do not seem to understand that direct connections with the big world capitals , by a home carrier , is a must for business and tourism.

I still hope that SN and BRU will make it, but I am very pessimistic.

We have to be really jealous from LX, AY, OS ,... and ZRH, HEL,..CPH,.
..and the income they generate for their countries, the jobs they create,...

I must ask something here, why should Brussels Airlines get any benefits that other national carriers (Thomas Cook, Jetairfly, VLM, TNT) can't have? Just because they are called Brussels Airlines?

Create good legal, fiscal, environmental.... conditions for all airlines.
Workable conditions for airports and airlines.

Many of the above posts describe what is wrong with the status of pilots and other personnel.

If we would have just a business-friendly environment (like in NL where they find solutions and where KLM, Martinair, Transavia flourish).

There is the chaotic political structure (which does not allow any ambitious long-term planning), and there is the 20th century management of SN and BRU.

VLM and others need to be congratulated and encouraged for their successful business, ...but like every country we need a strong home carrier and not to depend from foreign airlines who come (and go with the first crisis).

AY, LX, OS, .... should be the examples.

[JAFflyer]

ok this is getting off topic but just to answer your question:

every airline in Belgium needs to be treated the same so no special favours for SN.
BUT Brussels airlines is the national carrier (sort of) because they are the only real normal pax carrier. The others are charter or cargo companies.

I must say that if Brussels airlines is the national carrier/pride then we don't have a lot to be proud about. sorry.

To be honest, I don't think this is off topic, because the problems described in this topic concern all Belgian airlines. Everybody is losing pilots at the moment and mostly for the same reasons.
Second of all, stating that we should think of Brussels airlines as the national carrier is absurd. I have nothing againts them, but in the end they are still DAT (as is published on the rosters) and not Sabena and they still have to prove themselves.
So they should deal with problems any airline has and not get a preference treatment, you have to earn the status of national carrier, not inherit it from a dead one (sabena).

[flyavro]

I think DAT did prove itself and still is for 6 years now.

Do you see any other airline in Belgium doing that job?

VLM is doing a great job but they are a niche player and not a real contender for national carrier (but wow what a company, at least they know how to run their show).

Oh yeah and all that animosity between ex-Sabena and DAT pilots (and other employees) please get over it. 8)

[JAFflyer]

You misunderstood my point I believe. But anyway. DAT did prove itself but Brussels hasn't.
And by the way, currently there is only 1 airline booming in Belgium and it ain't Brussels! But that's the last thing I have to say about this.

grtz!