AC has officially cancelled the 787/777 order.

SR89 · Post by **SR89** » 19 Jun 2005, 04:59

http://micro.newswire.ca/release.cgi?rk ... -0&Start=0

sacha · Post by **sacha** » 19 Jun 2005, 10:05

Disappointing

website-info · Post by **website-info** » 19 Jun 2005, 10:16

at least with photoshop Boeing should be able to erase the Air Canada sticker from the B777-200LR aircraft displayed at LBG this week

T

sab319 · Post by **sab319** » 19 Jun 2005, 11:37

I think some people in Seatlle must be a bit frustrated now....

B744skipper · Post by **B744skipper** » 19 Jun 2005, 12:40

:frusty: :censored: :stop: :frown: :dammit: :shakehead:

Great, this one of the reasons why I hate unions so much!

Let's clarify that, the pilot-union (ALCA or something like that) has rejected an offer by the Air Canada management. The Air Canada management wanted to change the way of payment to the pilots, AC wants to pay them by seniority, while the pilot-union wants to keep the current situation, which is payment by size of the aircraft. And as you might have guessed, since the B773 are a bigger then the largest aircraft they currently fly (A345), the pilot-union demanded a pay raise. They did not get that, so AC was forced to cancel the order (problem here is that the union has way too much power).

It has nothing to do with either Boeing or Airbus here, since the A350 and A346 also would have been bigger, AC would have run into the same problems (pay raises for the pilots).

It won't be such a problem for Boeing to fill those delivery slots, since the B777 and the B787 are very popular aircraft. Boeing seems to be very cold on this one, and confident that they will place the aircraft with other airlines:

SEATTLE, June 18, 2005 -- We share Air Canada 's disappointment at today's developments because we are looking forward to being a part of Air Canada 's vision for leadership. We are seeing very strong demand for the 777 and the 787, and we believe we will have many opportunities to place these aircraft elsewhere.

http://www.boeing.com/news/breakingnews ... 0618g.html

The big loser here is Air Canada:
- Air Canada's plan was to standardise the widebody fleet on two-engine planes with similar engines (GE90 ane GEnX) and cockpits. It looks as if this is not going to happen, which can only mean higher operating costs for AC.
- In a few years time (maybe around 2010) Air Canada will fly "old" equipment, so the competitive advantage towards competing airlines will deminish (they need to replace the B767's sometimes).

MrAirbus · Post by **MrAirbus** » 19 Jun 2005, 14:29

Well I live in a country that’s being run by the union/Socialdemocrats = SWEDEN!

I found the UNION to be “legalize criminal organization”!

Unfortunately I don’t think this action will give Airbus any chance to make a better offer!!!

SR89 · Post by **SR89** » 19 Jun 2005, 18:45

B744skipper wrote:
Great, this one of the reasons why I hate unions so much!

Let's clarify that, the pilot-union (ALCA or something like that) has rejected an offer by the Air Canada management.

WRONG

Let's clarify something here. The ACPA (the Air Canada Pilot Association) did come to terms with AC management. Pilots (not the ACPA)subsequently voted against the agreement but the union has nothing to do with the cancellation.

Quite the opposite in fact. Pilots voted against what their union was recommending. The ACPA said YES, pilots said NO.

regi · Post by **regi** » 20 Jun 2005, 09:48

On other forums, the Boeing die hards start to complain now that it is not about numbers.

Andries · Post by **Andries** » 20 Jun 2005, 11:42

You should also consider the point of the pilots. They 'd rather fly a bit older aircraft to give the company some financial breathingroom than take new aircraft and get into Chapter 11 and maybe never get out again ...
Eventually the chose to secure their job for a while longer ...

I can understand the dissapointment with boeing and many spotters, but I can also understand the point of view of the pilots.

That being said, I too find it a pitty this deal is cancelled as I am a huge B777 fan ...

Greetz,

Andries

chunk · Post by **chunk** » 20 Jun 2005, 15:29

I don;t think this will be the last of the cancelled orders either - unless Boeing does a US Air / Boeing type deal on teh finance then I can see NWA and then Continental having to defer or cancel - neither of these operators have the funds to cover what they have ordered - though CO's are likely leased which will maybe help. As for Primaris - lets not even discuss them......

B744skipper · Post by **B744skipper** » 20 Jun 2005, 17:02

Andries wrote:You should also consider the point of the pilots. They 'd rather fly a bit older aircraft to give the company some financial breathingroom than take new aircraft and get into Chapter 11 and maybe never get out again ...
Eventually the chose to secure their job for a while longer ...

Let's continue the metaphors. But since the oil price hit $59 a barrel today those airlines will see their breathingroom drown in the fuel costs and eventually find themselves in Chapter 11 and maybe never get out again. That's where the management is for, making the right decisions at the right moment (not saying this always happens).

But only time will tell if the pilots have made the right decisions, and if they will keep their jobs.

cathayoneworld · Post by **cathayoneworld** » 21 Jun 2005, 06:10

so will Air Canada place an order for A350 and A340 later???

Post by **sn26567** » 21 Jun 2005, 09:17

cathayoneworld wrote:so will Air Canada place an order for A350 and A340 later???

I guess not. Pilots would complain in a similar way.

B744skipper · Post by **B744skipper** » 21 Jun 2005, 10:45

cathayoneworld wrote:so will Air Canada place an order for A350 and A340 later???

Maybe you should have read the topic first before start typing away.

It has nothing to do with either Boeing or Airbus here, since the A350 and A346 also would have been bigger, AC would have run into the same problems (pay raises for the pilots).

Btw, even when the pilot issues are resolved, you can forget about more A340's in Air Canada's fleet, Milton (Air Canada's CEO) clearly stated that AC does not want 4 engine aircraft and the key to profitability is twin engine, highly efficient aircraft. Although the A345/346 is a great aircraft, it is not a twin or fuel efficient when compared to B773ER/772LR.

I think Air Canada has some A346's on order, but has cancelled them or decided not to take those aircraft. But I'm not totally sure here, maybe anyone else can shed more light on this?

Air Canada could face serieous problems here, when the problems with the pilots continue. One thing they can do to increase capacity at the moment is to get some second hand B767's and/or A340's. But those are scarce on the market at the moment. And in the future they will need a replacement for the B767 first. The A350 would be way too large for that, and the B787 would fit in better as a replacement. As I see it, the pilots objected to the B773's which would have been bigger then the A345 they fly now, and since they would not get a pay raise they rejected.
I'm not sure if the B787 is (very much) bigger then the B763, because when not they should only have cancelled the B777's.

Let's see what the future brings.

JoeCanuck · Post by **JoeCanuck** » 21 Jun 2005, 19:02

A/C pilots have never been concerned with the fate of the airline or any workers except themselves. It's all about what the pilots get and screw everyone else. They don't have the long term view of a head of cabbage. It's been that way since the dawn of A/C and will never change.

SR89 · Post by **SR89** » 21 Jun 2005, 19:07

B744skipper wrote:

I think Air Canada has some A346's on order, but has cancelled them or decided not to take those aircraft. But I'm not totally sure here, maybe anyone else can shed more light on this?

Hey skipper,

AC does have three 346s on order, to be delivered in 2010. AC has a unilateral right to cancel the order without penalty.

gap777 · Post by **gap777** » 23 Jun 2005, 22:03

A/C may very well order airbus planes because the current contract in place will allow them to add airbus products, meaning a340-300 or a330, if they cannot find suitable used products. These planes are still very fuel efficient and could satisfy their needs for years to come. A/C would not have to go through the hassle with the pilots if they go this route. I still feel that they will negotiate a deal with the pilots and will reorder the boeing craft.

bits44 · Post by **bits44** » 24 Jun 2005, 14:05

Reports of my death may be premature!
who was it that said that?

There still may life after all, the cancellation may have a chance of being revoked.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/ ... s/Canadian

bits44 · Post by **bits44** » 26 Jun 2005, 04:38

It looks like Government intervention in the Pilots seniority dispute may allow the Boeing order to proceed.

Sources at Boeing say the order slots are on hold, not cancelled.

http://www.canada.com/national/national ... b1912058cd

B744skipper · Post by **B744skipper** » 26 Jun 2005, 12:27

bits44 wrote:It looks like Government intervention in the Pilots seniority dispute may allow the Boeing order to proceed.

Sources at Boeing say the order slots are on hold, not cancelled.

Well, finally some good news. Glad to see that Boeing is also confident about the order and still holds the slots.
Air Canada's Airbusses are fairly new, they could fly for some time, but it is really critical to get a replacement for the aging B767's in time. And if the deal for the B787 is delayed too much, the early delivery slots are all taken and AC would need to wait (too long) for their B767 replaments. Theyre B767 can fly for another few years, but then they need to be replaced, if Air Canada does not want to lose a competitive advantage over other airlines.