Conflicting opinions about the dispersion plan of BRU

A26 · Post by **A26** » 16 Jun 2005, 21:24

Atlantis wrote:And what about all our national carriers? SNBA, Thomas Cook, Tui, VLM, Virgin Express, DHL in al small version in 2008. What about their positions if the airport closed?

Well, I can only speak for VLM, but I don't think they consider it a big loss, I'm afraid. We only have our BRU-SOU and BRU-LCY routes. But on the other hand a lot of employees and mechs have their "roots" in BRU.

sab319 · Post by **sab319** » 16 Jun 2005, 21:30

I'm considering of setting up a group pro EBBR if anyone is interested in helping setting it up mail to proBRU@gmail.com or visit the site at www.probru.be.tt

Post by **sn26567** » 17 Jun 2005, 09:48

Rayman wrote:The Belgian State will pay a fine 25.000 euro for each movement in violation.

To whom does de State have to pay Where does that money end
To the State itself?

No, the money goes to the plaintiffs.

LX-LGX · Post by **LX-LGX** » 17 Jun 2005, 17:02

BRU indeed is under attack on two totally different fronts:

- there is Miss Piggy, who has bought a nice home close to the airport, and only afterwards noticed planes make noise. She has found a way to sue BIAC: one st... minister has decided he knows how a plane must take off and land (Miss Piggy only likes the big, noisy cargo planes if the Eva Air MD-11's are flying in the goods she needs for her own business gifts shop).

- and then here is BB (Big Brussels) = Région de Bruxelles-Capitale / Brussels Hoofdstedelijk Gewest. The Brussels government has sued the national government because planes flying over Brussels make too much noise: more than 45 db, that's the limit that Brussels installed.

Brussels only want the advantages from the airport. It wants the tourists filling up it's hotels and it wants the trademen/women, coming to do business in Brussels. And Brussels wants the EU-diplomats from SXB (Strassbourg), as those guys are big spenders in restaurants, shops, etc. But Brussels wants that the planes with "their" visitors fly only over Flanders, so they've installed that stupid noise limit.

It's now up to the minister of Transport to clearly ask Brussels if they really don't want an international airport close to them. But here is the biggest problem: like most Belgian political parties, the political party of the minister is both a majority party in the Brussels government and in the national government. He now has to defend him against legal action from ... his own party!

Solution : forget about noise rules, routes, dispersion plan Anciaux 1, dispersion plan Anciaux 2, d.p. Landuyt 1, governments, etc. Put safety first and let the guys from ATC decide what is the safest runway to take off and land. Thus back to the 1999 situation.

Post by **airbuske** » 17 Jun 2005, 17:08

Let Dehaene come back

He is a guy pro Brussels Airport.

Zorba · Post by **Zorba** » 17 Jun 2005, 17:24

I think we have a great suggestion from one of our friends @ www.piloten.be : Make a email, with the message we are planning to start up a group for the airports, and mail it to all airport companies using Brussels, Ostend, Antwerp, ...

I believe this is the best way to get them behind us (get support), and they can reach much much more then we here at Luchtzak.

I've just send a mail to sab319 with the same proposition.

Bye bye

Post by **sn26567** » 17 Jun 2005, 17:38

LX-LGX wrote:Brussels only want the advantages from the airport. It wants the tourists filling up it's hotels and it wants the trademen/women, coming to do business in Brussels. And Brussels wants the EU-diplomats from SXB (Strasbourg), as those guys are big spenders in restaurants, shops, etc. But Brussels wants that the planes with "their" visitors fly only over Flanders, so they've installed that stupid noise limit.

Brussels would also be interested in a few jobs at the airport, but does not get them...

I think this is not the right way to assess the situation. The airport is a national airport and all the issues should be handled at the national level. That would probably suppose that the routes be dictated by safety first, and by the least inconvenience next (meaning Brussels and its 1,000,000 inhabitants would only be overflown if safety requires it).

LX-LGX wrote:Solution : forget about noise rules, routes, dispersion plan Anciaux 1, dispersion plan Anciaux 2, d.p. Landuyt 1, governments, etc. Put safety first and let the guys from ATC decide what is the safest runway to take off and land. Thus back to the 1999 situation.

Fully agree with you.

afterburner · Post by **afterburner** » 17 Jun 2005, 20:33

All those problems begin with the minister Durant (Ecolo). I agree what LX-LGX wrote : we have to go back to the 1999 situation. A lot of companies seems to be interested to land in BRU and the belgian governement do nothing to preserve the public utility of the airport. He did that before with Sabena !

Zorba · Post by **Zorba** » 17 Jun 2005, 21:56

I made a small banner, hope you like it

Ozzie1969 · Post by **Ozzie1969** » 17 Jun 2005, 21:57

Airbus_fan wrote:I made a small banner, hope you like it

It's a pity that there's a grammatical error in your banner...

SN30952 · Post by **SN30952** » 18 Jun 2005, 01:10

sn26567 wrote:Brussels would also be interested in a few jobs at the airport, but does not get them...

And we all know why....
That is not the fault of the airport. Although it is called 'National', it is in fact 'International'. That means if working there, one needs to speak some languages. Brussels can not fill its own positions according to its bi-lingual status recruiting in its own populations, how can it than fill positions outside its borders, where more (in volume) qualified people apply for the jobs.

Considering the total belgian population is some ten millions, and the Brussels population one million, 10% of jobs might be supposed to go to qualified inhabitants of Brussels. All jobs blended, from taxi driver to BIAC president.
I had always the feeling that it was so.
In fact already, a N-S parity would give an incorrect picture of the total population, as I said earlier, some people want to kill the hen. Parity on the federal level will be difficult to defend in the perspective of not accepting parity in the burdens of what is left "National'.
As long the military service was not a paid job, there were more Flemish boys in the belgian army, now it is a (well) paid job, the French speaking Belgians want half of these jobs. That's what I call adjusting the rules of the games, fixing the laws to his own benefice. Like a well known Brusseleir said: Trop is teveel, en teveel is trop.....
Now is the matter to see how far is too far, before people start regretting things.

All discomfort has to be calculated in this count, including air, ground and other transport. If this is asking too much, railways e.g. should be not longer be considered 'National' but every and each federal state should pay for its own railway and the personnel that comes with it, as are the roads and waterways.
Btw how much would it cost to change the name into Brussels Federal Airport, which would be a denomination or label closer to actual reality.

AFApresident · Post by **AFApresident** » 18 Jun 2005, 13:40

I never understood why BRU´s official name is not Brussels International Airport instead of Bruxelles national. As if there were at any time only domestic flights.

killerwhale65 · Post by **killerwhale65** » 18 Jun 2005, 13:41

Ozzie1969 wrote: It's a pity that there's a grammatical error in your banner...

should be: help us save
but this is only preliminary, URL will change to a more proffesional version!

LX-LGX · Post by **LX-LGX** » 18 Jun 2005, 14:34

sorry to correct again: hope it's going to be a professional one, and not proffesional.

My English isn't perfect either, but a click on "SpellCheck" corrects these errors.

SN30952 · Post by **SN30952** » 18 Jun 2005, 17:07

LX-LGX wrote:sorry to correct again: hope it's going to be a professional one, and not proffesional.
My English isn't perfect either, but a click on "SpellCheck" corrects these errors.

fftopic: This reminds me my latin teacher, >40 years ago.
I forgot twice the same word in a Latin grammar exercise, and he put in the margin: Aandach... Aandach...* When I showed him his 'work', he got angry. I then said: Why are you getting angry, I don't. We never spoke again. btw where is our Luchtzak Latin teacher from Liege?
End of parenthesis.

The attitude of "Bruxelles' seems not much to differ from the attitude of (some) of its inhabitants that like to scratch cars they cannot afford.

It shows jealousy? Try the test. If you're not one of these you can select the test that applies to your personality.

JEALOUSY IS ABOUT FEAR
It is crucial to understand what jealousy is and what it is about. Jealousy is about fear--fear of the unknown and of change, fear of losing power or control (in a relationship), fear of scarcity and of loss (jobs), and fear of abandonment.
It is a reflection of our own insecurity about our worthiness, anxiety about being adequate.
POWER IMBALANCES CAN AGGRAVATE JEALOUSY
Jealousy can be literally paralyzing.

Question is: what did trigger this jealousy?
The letters with reference to the nazi episode of the runways is a clear indication of a pathology.

To solve this kind of crisis there are two ways:
-1- you avoid as much as possible these kind of jealous people.
-2- you make a cost/benefit analysis. Can you tolerate a certain amount of discomfort?

*Cave...Cave...

SN30952 · Post by **SN30952** » 18 Jun 2005, 17:46

I forgot: The answer to the question is in De Tijd:

Also this is important:
(belga) - De Vlaamse regering heeft de omzetting van de Europese richtlijn omtrent omgevingslawaai goedgekeurd.
Dat houdt in dat tegen midden 2007 de geluidsimpact van grote wegen, belangrijke spoorwegen en luchthavens in Vlaanderen in kaart wordt gebracht.
Vanaf midden 2008 start de Vlaamse overheid dan met het aanpakken van de zwaarste geluidshinder.
Imagine that the impact of the hi-speed trains to Brussels exceeds the norm, then Brussels will have no trains anymore.
Or that the Ring exceeds the norm, then you better buy a bike if you want to leave Brussels.

Conclusion: If Bruxelles kills the hen with the golden eggs, it might harm itself to death.... Say bye bye to international headquarters, to tourism.
Bruxelles will become Death Valley on the Zenne.

Zorba · Post by **Zorba** » 18 Jun 2005, 23:22

From vrtnieuws.net :

za 18/06/05 - Minister van Financiën en voorzitter van de Franstalige liberalen Didier Reynders wil in ons land een tweede nationale luchthaven naast Zaventem oprichten. Op die manier kan er een doorbraak komen in het dossier rond de geluidsoverlast rond Zaventem, aldus de minister.

Er is volgens Reynders in De Tijd dringend een akkoord tussen de federale overheid en de gewesten Vlaanderen en Brussel nodig. Zoniet dreigt de werking van Zaventem in de problemen te komen en dat zou economische gevolgen hebben.

Reynders wil een nieuw spreidingsplan rond Zaventem laten opstellen. Dat zou de toestand moeten herstellen van voor 1999, de periode dat Ecolo-minister Durant en haar Spirit-opvolger Anciaux begonnen te sleutelen aan de vluchtplannen.

Volgens Reynders zou dat een perspectief bieden aan omwonenden zowel in Vlaanderen als in Brussel. Bovendien zou het vertrek van een deel van DHL in 2008 het probleem al gemakkelijker maken.

"Een tweede nationale luchthaven is nodig"

Om het lawaaiprobleem in Zaventem aan te pakken, ziet Reynders ook heil in een mogelijk nieuwe luchthaven elders of op zijn minst in het afleiden van een aantal van vluchten van Zaventem naar andere luchthavens.

Hij denkt dan onder meer aan Oostende, Charleroi of Bierset bij Luik.

Anderzijds geeft Reynders toe dat de strenge lawaainormen die het Brusselse Gewest heeft opgelegd, overdreven zijn. Brussel moet nu eenmaal een luchthaven hebben, zegt de politicus nog.

Short in English :

Minister Reynders wants the same situation as before (in) 1999. It would be better for Brussels and Vlaanderen.

Reynders does also wants a new, second National airport for Belgium. He thinks about Ostend, Charleroi or Liege.

To be continued...

realplaneshaveprops · Post by **realplaneshaveprops** » 19 Jun 2005, 00:54

45dB limit!?!?!? So rain is also prohibited above Brussels, because that's 50dB!

Take a look at this link:
http://www.lhh.org/noise/decibel.htm

Greetz

Only Real Planes Have Props

zillox · Post by **zillox** » 19 Jun 2005, 01:43

Sometimes I am shamed to live here

An international airport where planes may land when people are awake and people get fired because some real-estate guy's want to money.