Cathay Pacific to buy A340's or B777's

A380-800 · Post by **A380-800** » 10 Jun 2005, 21:45

A very interesting article about the future fleet plans of CPA.
They have requested proposals from both Airbus and Boeing
for either the A340-600 or B777-300ER for fleet expansion bet-
ween 2007 and 2012.

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid= ... fer=europe

rgds,

A380-800

cathayoneworld · Post by **cathayoneworld** » 11 Jun 2005, 07:26

I hope they will go for A340-600!

How about A380? I couldn't imagine that CX hasn't got any A380 while many rivals have already ordered it.

Choose A380 instead of the paper plane, B747ADV!

sab319 · Post by **sab319** » 11 Jun 2005, 10:56

they will order B773ER and B747adv I'm pretty sure about that...

B744skipper · Post by **B744skipper** » 11 Jun 2005, 12:39

sab319 wrote:they will order B773ER and B747adv I'm pretty sure about that...

I fully agree with you, I guess when they order a package of those aircraft Boeing will offer them such a good deal that they can't resist. And if Airbus would offer them a deal with the A346 and the A380 it will probably be more expensive since the A380 is much more expensive then the B744-Adv (it has significantly lower development costs).
Also the B773 would be cheaper to operate then the A346 (I read something about 25% less fuel used per passenger compared to the A346). To be fair, it has to be said that the A346 is cheaper to purchase then the B773. But with ever rising fuel costs the difference between lower operating costs for the B773 and the lower purchase price of the A346 will deminish even more, and probably make the B773 a much cheaper plane to aquire and operate overall.

HorsePower · Post by **HorsePower** » 11 Jun 2005, 13:15

B744skipper wrote:Also the B773 would be cheaper to operate then the A346 (I read something about 25% less fuel used per passenger compared to the A346).

Come on, stay on earth!

B744skipper wrote:the A380 is much more expensive then the B744-Adv (it has significantly lower development costs)

The catalog price for 1 A380 is between €260 and 290 m. Can you give me the price for 1 B747-Adv to compare the price per passenger?

Regards

Seb.

B744skipper · Post by **B744skipper** » 11 Jun 2005, 14:14

HorsePower wrote:
B744skipper wrote:Also the B773 would be cheaper to operate then the A346 (I read something about 25% less fuel used per passenger compared to the A346).
Come on, stay on earth!

reply15 wrote:The 773ER burns about 25% less fuel per passenger than the A346. That's why it looks more attractive to airlines.

Source

Ok, I have to agree that on A.net a lot of crap is posted, so I'll try and find some figures, could take a while though.

Here they are:
Boeing 777-300ER:
Seating 3-class lay-out: 368
Range: Range with 368 passengers 13,427km
Maximum Fuel Capacity: ????

Source

Airbus A340-600:
Seating 3-class lay-out: 372
Range: Range with 372 passengers 13,890km
Maximum Fuel Capacity: ????

Source

So I can't get complete information on this, so I would be happy if you can provide that. I'll can make some calculations then whether the fuel savings are 25% on the B773ER compared to the A346.

HorsePower wrote:
B744skipper wrote:the A380 is much more expensive then the B744-Adv (it has significantly lower development costs)
The catalog price for 1 A380 is between €260 and 290 m. Can you give me the price for 1 B747-Adv to compare the price per passenger?

No, I cannot give you any price for the B747-Adv, but I can give you some figures of the "standard" B747-400:

747 Family 2004 $ in Millions
747-400/ -400ER 198.0 - 227.0
747-400/ -400ER Freighter 202.0 - 228.0

Source

Note: These figures are in US Dollars, so the price may differ from time to time, to make things easier I took the current value of the dollar in Euro's, as of today, the June the 11th.
Live mid-market rates as of 2005.06.11 11:44:22 UTC.
1.00 EUR = 1.21215 USD
United States Dollars
Source

For the Boeing 747-400:
$213.000.000 = €176.033.057

Airbus had to make its A380 appear from out of the nothing, and so the development costs are very high (don't know for sure, but was it something like €10 to €12 billion?), but the Boeing 747-Adv can be based on an existing design and produced in existing facilities. This means that the cost of an B747-Adv won't be higher then that of the B747-400, wo has gone through the same process when being designed (based on existing design and produced in existing facilities).
Now it depends on Boeing what they will ask for a B747-Adv, the break-even point is lower then that of the A380. And airlines of course can get very nice deals out of them.

So these are the figures I base for the B744-Adv:
Price (average of the price range above): €176.033.057
Seats: Around 450 (the Adv adds about 30-40 seats).
Purchasing price per seat: €176.033.057/450 = €391.184,57

So these are the figures you gave for the A380:
Price (average of the price range above): €275.000.000
Seats: Standard seating for 555 passengers on two decks in a three-class arrangement.
Purchasing price per seat: €275.000.000/555 = €495.495,50

But acquiring aircraft is one thing; operating costs are need also to be considered. Like with the A346 and the B773, the A346 is cheaper to buy, but the B773 is cheaper to operate. So a lower price tag doesn't necessarily need to mean something.

HorsePower · Post by **HorsePower** » 11 Jun 2005, 15:54

Arhggg! *invalid session*

So I have to redo everything:

A340-600 (MTOW 365t) Maximum Fuel Capacity: 194.500 liters

On a side note, the A340-600 HGW (MTOW 380t) range with 380 pax is 7.900Nm (14.630km). Unfortunately, the specific datas are still undisclosed.

(Source: Airbus)

B777-300ER (MTOW 340.195t) usable fuel: 181.264 liters. As you know, a small amount of fuel in the lower part of the reservoirs can't be used. I suggest you to use 182.000 liters for your comparison.

(Source: Boeing)

Regards

Seb.

EDIT: Perhaps the guy on A.net forget the dot (2.5%)

I have found aproximately 2.2%.

Seb.

regi · Post by **regi** » 11 Jun 2005, 20:45

No no no, if you have an invalid section, just click on the "previous page" button, and you see again all your text. You can copie the text , go back to the forum page, go back to the specific forum , and make a new reply, by pasting the copied text onto it.

A380-800 · Post by **A380-800** » 11 Jun 2005, 20:54

Even if Cathay does not order the A340-600 and the B777-300ER instead,
I am pretty sure that they will order the one or the other A380 anytime
soon. Just because all other big carriers have them, too !

rgds,

A380-800

HorsePower · Post by **HorsePower** » 11 Jun 2005, 21:08

THX regi, it will be helpfull!

A380-800 wrote:I am pretty sure that they will order the one or the other A380 anytime
soon.

I've heard that Airbus will reveal a new A380 customer during Paris Air Show. Perhaps it is just a rumor...

Regards

Seb.

A380-800 · Post by **A380-800** » 11 Jun 2005, 21:14

Perhaps is BA ordering one, just to close the issue about ordering it
or not ?

Would be good for the A380 to have another customer !

rgds,

A380-800

B744skipper · Post by **B744skipper** » 12 Jun 2005, 11:58

A380-800 wrote:Just because all other big carriers have them, too!

I'm sorry to say this, but this is one of the most crappiest arguments I have ever heard. Ordering certain airline for prestige belongs in the "golden age" of aviation, when money never was that kind of a problem. Look at American Airlines, Delta Airlines, Continental Airlines, they all operated the Boeing 747 and quickly discovered that although it was a nice prestige object, but it was hard to make some money with them. So they quickly got rid of their B747 prestige toys.
But times have changed, airlines only order a certain aircraft when there demand can justify them. Take KLM as example, they do not have enough demand to fill an A380, so we will probably never see KLM operating the A380. Even not for prestige reasons only, these days decisions are made on economical reasons. If a B773 or B747-Adv suits an airline better, they will order those aircraft, instead of ordering aircraft for prestige reasons that would lose them money or lower yields.

HorsePower · Post by **HorsePower** » 12 Jun 2005, 17:19

On a side note:

Hong Kong's airport saw passenger numbers rise 17.3 percent year-on-year in May to 3.3 million people.

@ B744skipper: I'm still waiting your paper. I have found aproximately 2.2% (well 2.148% to be accurate)

.

Regards

Seb.

B744skipper · Post by **B744skipper** » 12 Jun 2005, 21:26

HorsePower wrote:@ B744skipper: I'm still waiting your paper. I have found aproximately 2.2% (well 2.148% to be accurate)

Ok, I have come up with different percentage, but it isn't off that much (2.608%).

But I took a 10.000km route to compare the fuel consumption, because the maximum range of the B773 and A346 do differ slightly.

I have it compared to the A346, since I could not get hold of the maximum fuel capacity of the A346 HGW.

Here comes my calculation for the A346:
194.500 / 13890 x 10.000 = 140.028,80 / 372 = 376,42 liters of fuel consumed per passenger on a 10.000km route;
And here is it for the B773/ER:
181.264 / 13.427 x 10.000 = 134.999,63 / 368 = 366,85 liters of fuel consumed per passenger on a 10.000km route;
366,85 = 100%
366,85 / 100 = 3,6685;
376,42 / 3,6685 = 102,608%

So on a 10.000km route the B773/ER would use 2,608% less fuel per passenger then the A346, so the A.net guy probably missed the dot there.

MD-11 · Post by **MD-11** » 12 Jun 2005, 22:45

A380-800 wrote:Even if Cathay does not order the A340-600

They already have the A340-600

A340-642,reg. B-HQB

HorsePower · Post by **HorsePower** » 12 Jun 2005, 23:16

You are right Bart, CX currently has 3 A340-600 (286 seats) in fleet. currently, we are talking about a possible A340-600 HGW vs B777-300ER order. Unfortunately, I haven't the datas of the HGW yet.

@B744skipper: Ok, let's say it's around 2.5%

Regards

Seb.

TMT98 · Post by **TMT98** » 14 Jun 2005, 19:12

cathayoneworld wrote:I hope they will go for A340-600!

How about A380? I couldn't imagine that CX hasn't got any A380 while many rivals have already ordered it.

Choose A380 instead of the paper plane, B747ADV!

couldn't agree more
those luxerious first class seats and CX are just one.
just as the many seats, which are cummon in Asia.

But when it comes to A346 vs 773-ER, I hope they'll go with Airbus, the A346 is amazingly long and since they got quite a lot of A's in their fleet, these would fit in perfectly (just like the A388 btw..)

Jense · Post by **Jense** » 14 Jun 2005, 19:41

TMT98 wrote:But when it comes to A346 vs 773-ER, I hope they'll go with Airbus, the A346 is amazingly long...

I don't think CX will take care of that when ordering planes. It's efficiency all about (fuel use, commonality, ...)!

TMT98 wrote:...and since they got quite a lot of A's in their fleet

They also have a HUGE amount of 777's!

TMT98 · Post by **TMT98** » 14 Jun 2005, 21:38

Jense wrote:They also have a HUGE amount of 777's!

I know, but they're mostly used for regional flights, even the A330 and A340 are in the regional flights as well.
For Long Haul they use the 747 and A340 most of the times, as far as I got it though

cathayoneworld · Post by **cathayoneworld** » 17 Jun 2005, 13:37

I think CX should change their mind by ordering A350/B777-300ER instead of A340-600HGW.

Since Cathay Pacific is unhappy with A340-600's performance, and CX is happy with its A330s, I think they should change their choices to A350/B777-300ER.