EU Constitution, what will you vote

[B744skipper]

The EU has meddled, for the worse, in too many aspects of UK life. And it is well known that it is a corrupt organization too.

Can you prove these two allegations?

The second one is true, I can support Comet in that case.
Members of the European parliament have been stealing from benefits and compensations in a big way. Two examples:
- They can spend let's say E600 on a flight from London to Brussel. What are those basterds doing? They book a flight on Ryanair for lets say E50, but sack E600. This means that they make E550 on it, and it happens with other compensations also. And this is not a single case, all of the members of the European parliament do this.
- The members of the European parliament get a compensation for attending EU-assembly's. So they sign their presence at one assembly, after signing the book they leave immediately. AND they sack a compensation for their presence also. They even sign in for assembly’s that do not even take place, despite that they also sack money for that.

Well, that's what I call corrupt.

You never heard of this? It doesn't wonder me, because a journalist told me that the EU is very strict about what media can write/broadcast about the EU (like the EU-constitution, you only hear the good sides in the media, never a bad side about it). In plain language this means: The EU is censoring our media!

Great, let's vote in favor of the EU-constitution, it gives those corrupt and suppressive idiots just more power.

[sn26567]

The EU has meddled, for the worse, in too many aspects of UK life. And it is well known that it is a corrupt organization too.

Can you prove these two allegations?

Members of the European parliament have been stealing from benefits and compensations in a big way. Two examples:
- They can spend let's say E600 on a flight from London to Brussel. What are those basterds doing? They book a flight on Ryanair for lets say E50, but sack E600. This means that they make E550 on it, and it happens with other compensations also. And this is not a single case, all of the members of the European parliament do this.
- The members of the European parliament get a compensation for attending EU-assembly's. So they sign their presence at one assembly, after signing the book they leave immediately. AND they sack a compensation for their presence also. They even sign in for assembly’s that do not even take place, despite that they also sack money for that.

The fact that MEPs are legally using existing rules to their profit does not mean that the EU organisation (organization is US English, Louise) is corrupt. The European Parliament is not the EU! Change the rules to avoid such abuse. And don't tell me that such practices are not occurring in the Dutch Parliament...

[Comet]

Here are some links to sites about the Blair-sponsored legalised discrimination against the over 25s:

http://www.newdeal.gov.uk/page.asp?SSN=employ&ID=ND1824
New deal for under 25s provides a grant to work towards a qualification.

http://www.newdeal.gov.uk/page.asp?SSN= ... D=ND25PLUS
This tarining grant is not provided for over 25s, as you wills ee by following the link above. You willa lso see that people over 25 have to wait 18 months to qualify whilst under 25s only wait six months.

http://www.apprenticeships.org.uk/
The Modern Apprenticeship for under 25s. Blair plans to increase the number of places on this scheme, thereby denying more over 25s the chance to find meaningful training.

That is what I mean by legalised, government-sponsored age discrimination.

[HorsePower]

All around Europe people getting ready to vote in favour or against the European Constitution.
I am very curious what we all think about it here.

Does I really need to answer this one ?

We Belgians do not vote. And it is very well like that. Leave it to the parliament to decide: they know what it is about.

I don't find it too much democratic.

In France and in The Netherlands, most people who will vote NO do not even know what they are voting about. Their vote is a vote against their government

In France and in the Netherlands, most people who will vote YES do not even know what they are talking about. I will vote NO, this NO is against this Constitution, not against Europe nor french government. It's only because it contains too much dangers for citizens, workers and taxpayers.

A NO vote is totally irresponsible.

André, does I understand you read already all the 400 sheets before releasing such a statement? I've only read the summarized version (191 s) and I found it enough, thanks!

And personally, I don't see why my life should be governed by people who do not even speak my language

Houla, easy Louise, keep your mind open! BTW, they speak almost all in english .

The majority is going to vote against it since we don't want to be ruled by the big countries like France and Germany.

There are more than 82 millions of German people against 16 millions people in netherlands, so I don't found it illogic that Germany has more seats than Netherlands. If you give exactly the same number of seats for each country, it will means that a dutchman will have in fact more power than a german.

A national government could lose the elections when they are doing bad, but in the EU they are doing bad all the time and we as Europeans can't do anything about it.

Unfortunately, that's quite right.

British shipyards have laid off most of their workers, and now we see substandard rubbish built in France and Germany being used by so-called British operators instead of proper, home-built ships.

You got a point here about the Queen Mary 2. Also they were a lot of sri-lankan workers on it during the buiding, payed a misery. On a side note, everybody here have heard about the "ville de Bordeaux" Airbus A380 transporter ship, isn't it? But do you know where it was built?
No, not at St Nazaire.
In China, yes!
And why in China?
Because it was 30% cheaper than in Europe!

We can't compete against China and the European commission just abolished the restrictions on tissue imports from there. As a result, 40% imports increase in just 4 months! We can't compete...

I'm not saying the EU is perfect, but the constitution is a way to reform it, and make it better and more efficient, isn't it?

Did you know that you will need at least 2/3 of the countries agree between them to change a single world of it? This constitution is pro liberal, and is going to be frozen for the years to come...

Do you really like changing currencies every time you cross a border? Not me. I hate enough being compelled to exchange my EUR against GBP every time (=every month) I go to Manchester, giving a fat commission to the banks.

About the banks, did you realized that when the Euro cames, the banks still continued to imply a "fat commission" during at least 6 months.
Question: why?
Answer: because their friends at the European Comission decided that it was not pressing...

Our economy should be controlled from London, not Germany. Taxes should be set by the British, not the French and Germans.

Well, this is actually the case for most economic decisions. But when the UK goes on its own (by not being member of the Euro), it is not particularly profitabkle for its citizens who have to pay an interest rate of 5% instead of 2.5% in the Euro zone!

In fact, all the Euro zone countries are loosing 95% of their economic decisions because the CEB rules! BTW, non-euro zone -like UK- has a better employement rate that Euro zone.

You'd better make your economy more competitive, instead of re-introducing protectionism.

What do you mean by "more competitive"?
Does the government should give even more (taxpayers) money to the industries to keep the employment going or should we reduce salaries? Both of it maybe?

The Kyoto-protocol is extremely important for the future generation of people on this planet, and if we keep on delaying drastic measures (for which we need the EU), I'm afraid for the worst.

A little bit off-topic but I'm fully agree with you on that. Hope the USA and Australia will give their agreement...

English is a world language followed by Spanish, this is a well known fact but French....no way.

May I remind you that Chinese is the first language in the world. Start taking lessons because it's even more difficult than french !

For french readers: (see it can be usefull sometimes to read french!)

Here is the personal website of a law teacher (who becames famous and famous in France) and which gives you good reasons to vote NO:
http://etienne.chouard.free.fr/Europe/
For the aviation side, the biggest french aviation forum say NO also:
http://www.eurocockpit.com/newedito.php

I'll be back !

Seb.

[sn26567]

Here are some links to sites about the Blair-sponsored legalised discrimination against the over 25s

That's why you should vote YES for the EU: it will not allow such discrimantions anymore. The Equal Treatment Framework Directive (2000/78/EC) will require the UK to implement national legislation preventing age discrimination before October 2006.

@Seb: do you really prefer to go back to the Nice Treaty, which everybody agreed was very complicated and bad?

Meanwhile, our Luchtzak poll counter stands at 8 YES vs. 5 NO. And I did not influence it, because Belgians do not vote But how come that only the NO brigade is so vocal in this forum? What do the YES voters have to say to defend their opinion?

[A318]

The YES voters have probably no idea where the EU constitution is going about and follow their political party leaders, which I almost did also but I woke up on time

Here some articles from two totally different political parties why we should vote NO:

Dutch Articles
http://www.geertwilders.nl/index.php?op ... &Itemid=74

http://www.geertwilders.nl/index.php?op ... &Itemid=71

English articles
http://international.sp.nl/bericht/0504 ... ation.html

http://international.sp.nl/bericht/0504 ... hanks.html

http://www.europeannocampaign.com

Enough reading with some very wise opinions.

Erwin

[sn26567]

The EU has done the UK a lot of good: markets for its products, which means jobs.

I suggest you keep quiet on the unemployment issue because you don't know what you are talking about with regards to UK unemployment.

Unemployment, measured by the standards of the International Labour Organisation (a specialised agency of the UN) is 4.8% in the UK, much lower than the EU average of 8.3%.

Another example of how the UK benefited from being part of the EU. This Wednseday, my employer switched his telephone provider from Belgacom to COLT.

COLT? Yes, City Of London Telecom. This would never have been possible if the UK had not been a member of the EU, and if the EU had not liberalised the telecom market. My employer is husproviding jobs to UK citizens.

[Sabena_690]

Here are some links to sites about the Blair-sponsored legalised discrimination against the over 25s

Blaming the 'system' is of course the easiest thing you can do if you don't have a job.

Unemployment is low in the UK, and the special initiatives for people under 25 years old are NORMAL because unemployment is high for people who have just finished their studies.

[terenia]

To me, it will be a clear YES when Poland will have its referendum on the European Constitution, although, like our post-communist government itself, I regret the omission of the Christian roots of our civilisation in the preamble. If some moslim countries can refer to the Coran in their consitution, I do not see why our European constitution could not refer to our common heritage.

[Comet]

Here are some links to sites about the Blair-sponsored legalised discrimination against the over 25s

Blaming the 'system' is of course the easiest thing you can do if you don't have a job.

Unemployment is low in the UK, and the special initiatives for people under 25 years old are NORMAL because unemployment is high for people who have just finished their studies.

Frederic - I am not just blaming the system for the sake of it, I am speaking from personal experience. The ones who are "helped" by the schemes for under 25s are not people who have just finished their studies (my god if it was, heaven help us because many of those who are on those schemes are illiterate) but those who are just unemployed. The ones just out of studies are often taken on by companies as graduates for management training, not Blair's New Deal and Modern Apprenticeship programmes, which, believe me, have condemned many people to a life of unemployment. I was fired at short notice to make way for a 20 year old, my only crime was to be over 25.

How would you feel if you were fired just because you were not of a "fashionable" age?

[A318]

Another example of how the UK benefited from being part of the EU. This Wednseday, my employer switched his telephone provider from Belgacom to COLT.

COLT? Yes, City Of London Telecom. This would never have been possible if the UK had not been a member of the EU, and if the EU had not liberalised the telecom market.

Excuse me? Long before the EU liberalized the telecom market I was already calling trough other cheaper telecom companies. The EU did nothing special here at all!!!!
So maybe they use that in Belgium to get people positive minded about the EU constitution but it is nothing more then an empty message.

Erwin

[VC10]

Some very interesting arguments on this thread!!

I will vote No, for reasons already given by Louise and others.

It is not right that totally different countries with their individual traditions, languages, cultures etc should be just lumped together in one massive Superstate, because that is what is happening.

As it has already been noted, if reports are to be believed the EU itself is rottten to the core with fraud and corruption, but apparently any attempt to do anything about this is blocked.

This country has been betrayed by numerous so-called leaders regarding EU matters since its sale "down the river" by that primal traitor Heath! The damage continues today, and there seems to be nothing the ordinary British person can do about it, except vote for any party who will withdraw. And, no, I'm not a total isolationist - good relations between countries are essential - trade agreements for example. I also love all the European countries I've visited, and Brussels is my favourite city - BUT I do NOT want to be ruled from there!!!

Blaming the 'system' is of course the easiest thing you can do if you don't have a job.

And, Frederic may I suggest that you know nothing of the system in this country (I worked for the so-called system for more years than you've been alive, so I think I can say that I know what I'm talking about - it was more helpful to people like Louise up to a few years ago!!) Yes, I agree that some people will blame "the system" for their problems, and there are the ones who are work-shy and do not want a job. Louise's condemnation of the system is justified I should know, I live with her. I was there when she was terminated for somebody on the New Deal . I've also witnessed her disappointment when she is debarred from most jobs/training due to the fact that she is unfortunate enough to be over 25!! This happens time and again - do not imply that she is blaming the system because she is workshy - she is not!!! If what Andre stated about such age discrimination being outlawed in 2006, I'm sure that everybody in the same unfortunate position as Louise will welcome it. Personally, I won't hold my breath - Blair is bound to worm his way out of it somehow!!

Anyway I'll still be voting no, same as I did in the previous referendum when we were dragged into the Common Market!!

Slightly fftopic: It's good to see Terenia back. Hope you are feeling better now. I must say that I was under the impression that you do not speak English when we met you briefly at the airport last year. Does Andre translate for your posts?

[sn26567]

If I hear you well, Trisha, you would prefer the UK becoming the 51st state of the USA rather than a member of the EU?

[VC10]

If I hear you well, Trisha, you would prefer the UK becoming the 51st state of the USA rather than a member of the EU?

Certainly not, Andre!

[HorsePower]

the french people voted today, with a good participation, around 70%.

The results are:

NO: 55%
YES: 45%

Seb.

[sn26567]

The French people voted NO to a constitution that provides for such new articles (as compared to the previous European treaties) equality between men and women, the basic principles of social security, the abolition of the death penalty, etc. Also NO to the extension of the powers of the only democratically elected body of the EU: the European Parliament.

However, they did not vote NO to the adhesion of Turkey, as the possibility of such an adhesion was already in previous treaties.

And now what? Can Europe ignore the vote of the nine countries (and half the population of the EU) that have already said YES? (Lithuania, Slovenia, Hungary, Spain, Italy, Greece, Slovakia, Austria, and last but not least, Germany)

[Comet]

Good on yer France! And now how many re-votes will there have to be until the "right" result is announced (ie a "yes")?

Forcing separate countries into one unit has never worked - look at the old Soviet Union and Yugoslavia - civil war in both places. I can see the same happening in the EU in years to come because countries will eventually want to escape what will be eventually ruled by France and Germany.

[sn26567]

Forcing separate countries into one unit has never worked

Not even in the USA?

I can see the same happening in the EU in years to come because countries will eventually want to escape what will be eventually ruled by France and Germany.

Leave France out of it, for te moment. And count on the UK to be also among the rulers if it does not opt out. But wait a moment, the Constitution provides for some rules about who is ruling. One of them says 'qualified majority' for most matters and even 'unanimity' for others. That cannot be France and Germany alone...

[A318]

the french people voted today, with a good participation, around 70%.

The results are:

NO: 55%
YES: 45%

Seb.

YESSSSS, merci merci merci.
Finally some good news from France and now we are the next country in line to vote.
Like a month ago still the majority will vote against the constitution also here in Holland but the difference got smaller end of last week.
After the NO from France I'll expect a higher percentage of NO here in Holland also.
We will see it coming wednesday when I will vote NO also

Erwin

[HorsePower]

Finally some good news from France and now we are the next country in line to vote.

I hope your country will do a good score also .

Seb.