EU Constitution, what will you vote

[sn26567]

Yesterday, the Belgian Senate has, by a large majority (54 against 9, and 1 abstention), voted yes to the European constitution. Only the extreme-right voted against.

Very well so.

[A318]

Yesterday, the Belgian Senate has, by a large majority (54 against 9, and 1 abstention), voted yes to the European constitution. Only the extreme-right voted against.

Very well so.

Too bad that the Belgium citizens had no possibility at all to vote what they think about it.
Do you know how we call it when governments make decisions for the people and not in agreement with the people.............communism!

Erwin

[Sabena_690]

Do you know how we call it when governments make decisions for the people and not in agreement with the people.............communism!

Care to look up the word 'communism' in a dictionnary? As far as I know, I can still refuse to vote again for my current government when I don't agree with their decisions.

There is Mr. Anti US again

I'll not react about this one, simply because you don't know me.

US environmental laws are as good as the Kyoto agreement!

Really? So why don't the US just sign Kyoto?

English is a world language followed by Spanish, this is a well known fact but French....no way.

French is and stays a very important language in business and in the world.

But for Holland (counts also for Germany and the UK) this Euro became a disaster!
The gulden (guilder) we had, was one of the strongest valuta in the world and gave us much more security then we have now with the Euro.

The Euro a disaster for The Netherlands!? Care to back that up?

About the gulden: what has being a strong valuta to do with the risk for currency changes? Even when your gulden is stable, didn't you have the risk of currency changes of the Belgian Franc, Deutsche Mark, French Franc etc?

By the way: Cyprus and Malta have joined EMS-II very recently. This means that, if they follow the rules, they'll be able to introduce the EUR within 2 years.

[sn26567]

Do you know how we call it when governments make decisions for the people and not in agreement with the people? .............communism!

1) It is not the government, but oour democratically elected senators who made the decision.
2) And even so, also our government is democratically supported by a majority of the parliament.
3) Communism? You don't know what you are talking about. My wife does: she lived in Poland before 1990. And I can tell you that our regime has absolutely NOTHING to do with comminism.

Hence the YES vote of Belgium is totally democratic. And I am sure that a majority of our people would gave voted yes if there had been a referendum.

FYI: As a political movement, communism is a more radical branch of the broader socialist movement. The communist movement differentiates itself from other branches of the socialist movement through their wish to completely do away with all aspects of market society under the final stage of the system, as well as their unshakable commitment to armed revolutionary strategies for overthrowing capitalism, and their focus on the international working class as key in that revolution (wikipedia). Not really Belgiul, if you ask me...

But for Holland (counts also for Germany and the UK) this Euro became a disaster!
The gulden (guilder) we had, was one of the strongest valuta in the world and gave us much more security then we have now with the Euro.

Are you an economist? I guess not, otherwise you woud know that the Euro IS the strongest currency in the world right now. And not thanks to the D-Mark, which used to be the strongest currency in the Euroland countries. Not anymore: now the other EU mambers are sustaining the German economy, whose repeated deficits are undermining the European economic policy. I agree with you however that the guilder was strong, as is the Euro now. The Netherlands has not lost anything in the switch to the Euro.

[A318]

And I am sure that a majority of our people would gave voted yes if there had been a referendum.

You can't be sure at all because there was no referendum in Belgium, so this is your opinion only.

But for Holland (counts also for Germany and the UK) this Euro became a disaster!
The gulden (guilder) we had, was one of the strongest valuta in the world and gave us much more security then we have now with the Euro.
Are you an economist? I guess not, otherwise you woud know that the Euro IS the strongest currency in the world right now. I agree with you however that the guilder was strong, as is the Euro now. The Netherlands has not lost anything in the switch to the Euro.

As you speak, the Euro is the strongest currency right now nor you nor me can talk about the future.
The Netherlands lost more then you can imagine, the Euro brought us amazing high prices for everything.
During the 'switch' to the Euro prices were not re-calculated as promised by our government.
I know that the re-calculating was done by the companies and store owners but there should have been a check by our government if this procedure was done correctly, they never did!
All they did (especially in bars, restaurants etc) is changing the FL into €
We were brought into misery and our monthly cots raised like crazy, nobody trusted our government anymore and a lot of people don't do know (currently 63% at least).

Erwin

[sn26567]

We were brought into misery and our monthly cots raised like crazy, nobody trusted our government anymore and a lot of people don't do know (currently 63% at least).

That is not what I read on the official CBS (Dutch statistics) website:



Or if you prefer yearly figures (in January):

1998 01 132.2
1999 01 135.1
2000 01 138.4
2001 01 144.1
2002 01 148.7
2003 01 151.7

[Sabena_690]

The Netherlands lost more then you can imagine, the Euro brought us amazing high prices for everything.
During the 'switch' to the Euro prices were not re-calculated as promised by our government.
I know that the re-calculating was done by the companies and store owners but there should have been a check by our government if this procedure was done correctly, they never did!

Lack of control is Europe's fault and not the fault of your government?

By the way, ever heard about inflation? Increasing prices are not only a fact; they are also mandatory. An inflation of 0% would cause an economical disaster.

A small correction to my previous posting: Malta and Cyprus will join EMS-II very soon (maybe even this weekend).

[A318]

That is not what I read on the official CBS (Dutch statistics) website:

CBS doesn't have relevant numbers since this organisation is also controlled (and financialy suportd) by the government Andre
Our government is doing everything to twist our minds once again.
If you really want relevant information go here:
http://www.peil.nl/?1568
They have weekly updates about the dutch voting ideas up to the 1st of June.

Erwin

[Sabena_690]

Our government is doing everything to twist our minds once again.

"Our" minds - sure this has to be in plural?

PS: interesting to see you avoiding all facts mentioned above. And even if you react, you say that those credible sources are 'biased'.

Oh well, this is the Erwin we know... keep on living in your dreamworld! It just doesn't make sense to discuss anything with you and your 'twisted mind' as you write above!

[B744skipper]

Our government is doing everything to twist our minds once again.

I can confirm this, the government is only giving EU-propaganda, and other views are not expressed. The government is even threatening us with a war, when we do not vote in favor of the EU-constitution. (Minister Donner said that if there will be no EU constitution that it will be likely that a war will ignite in Europe, just like in Yugoslavia).

@Sabena_690, Erwin is not living in a dreamworld, als the people that believe that one EU would work are. But time will tell who will be right, when Europe is sinking I already will have abandoned ship.

[A318]

Our government is doing everything to twist our minds once again.

I can confirm this, the government is only giving EU-propaganda, and other views are not expressed. The government is even threatening us with a war, when we do not vote in favor of the EU-constitution. (Minister Donner said that if there will be no EU constitution that it will be likely that a war will ignite in Europe, just like in Yugoslavia).

@Sabena_690, Erwin is not living in a dreamworld, als the people that believe that one EU would work are. But time will tell who will be right, when Europe is sinking I already will have abandoned ship.

Thanks B744skipper, at least somebody is backing up my words because it is not easy to convince people which minds are already got influenced by their governments.
Sabena_690 is always anti A318 so I don't even bother anymore to go in discussion with him/her.
On the other side, they will not vote anyway since they live in Belgium and got not even a chance to vote at all.
They got told by their government what has to be done, like it once was here in Holland

Greetz,

Erwin

[ryanvsnow]

If I had a choice i'd vote no as well but I'm an American and we have a system here that i like. Our constitution was build to give the states power and the Federal Government was spoused to over see it. Now we have gotten side tracked and Liberals have gotten the wrong idea of what America was originally set up for. I hope that our constitution never changes, otherwise we'd be right back where we started.

[sn26567]

Here it is not a vote to change te constitution, it is a vote to introduce a constitution.

What would happen if the NO wins in one songle country? In that case, the Nice treaty, that everybody agrees is very bad, would remain the basis for all decisions. It would be an immense step backwards. Better this constitution, which is not perfect, than no constitution at all.

[ryanvsnow]

Better this constitution, which is not perfect, than no constitution at all.

I can agree with that to an extent.

[A318]

Better this constitution, which is not perfect, than no constitution at all.

I can agree with that to an extent.

I should say "better no constitution then this lie"

[sn26567]

I should say "better no constitution then this lie"

How can a constitution be a lie? Can you explain?

As I said before, without a constitution, Europe will revert to the bad Nice treaty.

[Comet]

Erwin and B744skipper - I am in agreement with your views, it's the same here, all we hear from the government are the pro EU propoganda things, nothing unbiased or neutral from anyone. How can you listen to a word Blair says when he is a proven liar over the Iraq debacle? The Tories are pro EU enough to have taken the UK into that mess in the first place. The EU has meddled, for the worse, in too many aspects of UK life. And it is well known that it is a corrupt organisation too.

[sn26567]

The EU has meddled, for the worse, in too many aspects of UK life. And it is well known that it is a corrupt organisation too.

Can you prove these two allegations?
The EU has done the UK a lot of good: markets for its products, which means jobs. The UK has one of the lowest unemployment rates of the EU. And the UK would be even better off if it had adopted the Euro, avoiding costly bank operations for every import from or export to the Euro zone.

[Comet]

The EU has done the UK a lot of good: markets for its products, which means jobs.

Oh, so THAT'S why the UK fishing industry has been decimated, the UK farming industry and meat exports almost destroyed!

And I suggest you keep quiet on the unemployment issue because you don't know what you are talking about with regards to UK unemployment. It is well known that unemployment figures are fiddled, as people claiming other benefits such as incapacity and sickness benefits are not counted in the unemployed figures, even though they are people who are not working. I can tell you for an absolute fact that there would be low unemployment here in the UK if Blair did not give financial handouts to employers who only train people under 25, therefore rendering anyone over 25 unemployable and untrainable. And that is something I do know for a fact because I am a victim of this legalised age discrimination against people over 25.

[sn26567]

Oh, so THAT'S why the UK fishing industry has been decimated, the UK farming industry and meat exports almost destroyed!

But the whole European fishing fleet has been decimated. Because of over-fishing. Nothing to do with the EU. In the contrary, the EU tried to regulate fishing in order to avoid over-fishing.

And about age discrimination, the EU will help you too, from December 2006. Read this:

Age discrimination is the main area of discrimination which is protected in other countries but which is currently not directly protected in the UK. This will change by December 2006 when the Equal Treatment Framework Directive (2000/78/EC) requires the UK to implement national legislation preventing age discrimination.

Between now and 2006, any attempted age discrimination claims will have to relate to other statutory provisions or be brought directly under EU legislation. For example, there have been attempts to bring what are arguably age discrimination claims disguised as sex discrimination claims under the Sex Discrimination Act 1975.

In June 1999 the Government published a voluntary Code of Practice Age diversity in employment together with implementation guidance and case studies to show how a number of employers have tackled age discrimination. The Code sets out good practice principles to adopt in recruitment, selection, promotion, training and development, redundancy and retirement and reflects the advice given in this factsheet. There is growing evidence, through initiatives such as Age Positive, that UK employers are taking voluntary action to regulate their own working practices.

In July 2003, the Department of Trade and Industry published its consultation document Equality and diversity: age matters to seek views on how to implement legislation prohibiting age discrimination to comply with the Directive.

The Government’s intention is to have legislation take effect from 1 October 2006 in advance of the Directive’s deadline in December. There will be an initial consultation, expected in 2005, followed by the development of draft regulations for further consultation. The regulations will:

* outlaw unjustified mandatory retirement ages below age 65 (except where they can be objectively justified)
* allow those under 65 to retire early if they wish
* give those over 65 the right to request to continue working
* be reviewed in 2011 to consider whether it is still necessary to maintain mandatory retirement ages at all
* ban unjustified age discrimination in recruitment, promotion and other employment terms, as well as in vocational training.

The Government has said it will develop guidance documents so that employers have time to implement the changes. Other organisations such as ACAS have also indicated that they will produce guidance.

CIPD members can find out more on the legal aspects of this topic from our Age discrimination and retirement FAQ in the Employment Law at Work area of our website.