The end of the way for Alitalia?

HorsePower · Post by **HorsePower** » 14 Apr 2005, 23:27

Alitalia stated today (14APR05) that all the 400 M€ public aid from the Italian government has been eaten. "The remaining 245 M€ have been used on march"

So, what do you think?

Regards

Seb.

Post by **luchtzak** » 14 Apr 2005, 23:44

I am 200% positive that the Italian government will not let Alitalia down. Besides seeing a national carrier disappear can only happen in Belgium!

Post by **sn26567** » 15 Apr 2005, 09:43

luchtzak wrote:Besides seeing a national carrier disappear can only happen in Belgium!

... and in Switzerland, and in Holland...

But I agree with you that the Italian government will save Alitalia, no matter what the EU thinks, in the same way as the French government saved Air Farnce with massive capital injection a few years ago, against the objections of the EU.

Post by **Bruspotter** » 15 Apr 2005, 09:51

Hello

Maybe...but I wouldn't know why a country would like to see it's carrier going down like we had here....

As we here in Belgium and in Switzerland and also some others have proved, it's very difficult to restart and get famous again . In the mean time...routes and pax get lost....they choose for other airlines....airlines who used to code-share or operated flights on wich you could change on the main carrier...are being cancelled...etc....

By the way; as seeing by example in Belgium and Switzerland ; SN Brussels airlines and Swiss airlines are probably never be able to grow THAT large or larger than Sabena or Swissair...even more....they haven't got the trusth of passengers...or the good reputation a more than 80years good serving airline has, like by example Sabena....

Very BAD. So I really hope they don't do that in Italy...would be too bad not seeing all those nice Alitalia's

Best regards: Yannick

vflies · Post by **vflies** » 15 Apr 2005, 13:50

It's a matter of national pride...

Only Belgium shows so little of it and was willing to have another of its symbols go bust.

Switzerland tried to save its carrier and let it use a strong name and its flag.
And we know how difficult it has been for Air France to "merge" (lol) with KLM...

Italy won't let its carrier down, just like they don't let Fiat sink.

VFlies

sn-remember · Post by **sn-remember** » 15 Apr 2005, 14:23

@andre

luchtzak wrote:
Besides seeing a national carrier disappear can only happen in Belgium!

... and in Switzerland, and in Holland...

SWISS and KLM are still a brand on their own...each admittedly absorbed inside stronger financial groups making HUUUGE profits ;o)
And as well KLM as SWISS brands have now a far more promising future than ever before...
You would have been more than pleased I am sure to see ex-Sabena secured as a major brand within a successful group ?

Concerning Alitalia, the italian authorities imho will not let her down.
To my knowledge only Belgians let this happen in W-Europe until now (not proud

). So much easier to let believe that the airlines business has become too difficult making the job of running a sound business nearly impossible (the "belgian" way of settling the question

)

But the italian authorities cannot do miracles.. All actors will need to participate in the effort of bringing an ailing airliner into a profitable one.
It means sacrifices and hard work for the workforce as well as boldness and courage and acuteness for the management. There lies the challenge although I would believe the mission to be "feasable".

As for me , I would be very sorry indeed to see Alitalia disappear ...
Let us hope that the Sabena tragedy will not repeat itaself in Italy..

Post by **Bruspotter** » 15 Apr 2005, 14:28

Hello

vlfies , it is indeed a matter of national pride...it's a real statussymbol , wich they apparently didn't need here in Belgium.

Hope they're not so foolish in Italy as here...here they can even HUNT AWAY new airliners for BRU.....

Never seen a country having low airtraffic and still receives so much complaints about it....

It's only possible in Belgium.

Best regards: Yannick

JoeCanuck · Post by **JoeCanuck** » 15 Apr 2005, 14:31

Unfortunately, national pride notwithstanding, how long can a country continue to pour money into a sinkhole? There are greater social concerns in every country than a national airline. Sell the airline with the priviso that the name remains the same. Governments are not known for running efficient, competitive companies.

V-Bird · Post by **V-Bird** » 15 Apr 2005, 15:00

sn26567 wrote:... and in Holland...

Its The Netherlands Holland is just a part of an province name: Noord-Holland , Zuid-Holland

CSB · Post by **CSB** » 15 Apr 2005, 15:52

i agree it really was a pity to see sabena disappear.

But imo it was the only possible solution for the belgian government. History (especially here in belgium) has proven that hardly any governmentbuissines (overheidsbedrijf) is able to make profit under the wings of the government.

And we already see the result by now. SNBA is smaller than sabena, but it manages to make profit. So imo we have a new national carrier, without having to put streams of taxmoney in it.

Post by **sn26567** » 15 Apr 2005, 17:33

V-Bird wrote:
sn26567 wrote:... and in Holland...
Its The Netherlands Holland is just a part of an province name: Noord-Holland , Zuid-Holland

I know, V-Bird. I have worked long enough at the UN to know the official names of all the countries of the world (including the FYROM, Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia...).

But I was referring to your country as most people usually refer to it.

Flying-Belgian · Post by **Flying-Belgian** » 15 Apr 2005, 19:46

Héhé !!

EU doesn't work the same way for Berlusconi's Italy than for little divided Belgium !!
Don't worry the BIG European countries always find a solution between them !!
EU is all about mass manipulating. That's why I trully wish the win of the NO to the European Constitution.

FB.

HorsePower · Post by **HorsePower** » 15 Apr 2005, 19:58

What I've heard is Italian government is going to split AZ in 2 parts (see the pool!) and then will put all the debt into AZ industries, which will be owned by a state firm. AZ fly (the planes + the flight crews) will then be privatized (AF-KLM...)

What do you think about it?

Seb.

dna · Post by **dna** » 15 Apr 2005, 20:04

I don't think national pride should be taken into consideration, as it does not represent any economic value in the company books.

Let's face it. Alitalia has been an inefficient company for as long as anyone can remember, so why on earth should it survive? Why should airlines be different from any other companies (with the exception of public transport and health services). I hope Europe takes a tough stance if the Italian government decides to intervene yet again. Just sell it off to the highest bidder or toss it on the scrap heap.

md95 · Post by **md95** » 15 Apr 2005, 20:06

Pride in an airlines may be was good years ago, when nationalistic values prevailed. But today who cares about the name of the carrier if the service is good! Why, as a tax payer should I shoulder the cost of a fancy, but inproductive, airlines?

Ozzie1969 · Post by **Ozzie1969** » 15 Apr 2005, 23:13

dna wrote:I don't think national pride should be taken into consideration, as it does not represent any economic value in the company books.

Let's face it. Alitalia has been an inefficient company for as long as anyone can remember, so why on earth should it survive? Why should airlines be different from any other companies (with the exception of public transport and health services). I hope Europe takes a tough stance if the Italian government decides to intervene yet again. Just sell it off to the highest bidder or toss it on the scrap heap.

md95 wrote:Pride in an airlines may be was good years ago, when nationalistic values prevailed. But today who cares about the name of the carrier if the service is good! Why, as a tax payer should I shoulder the cost of a fancy, but inproductive, airlines?

Well said, both of you! It's good to see that some people still let common sense prevail.

B744skipper · Post by **B744skipper** » 16 Apr 2005, 00:19

No, definitely not, they just burn their last hope, I do see the EU object that this is illegal and maybe they will make Alitalia an example.

But on the other hand, I don't know in which way the Italian goverment is willing to burn more cash on Alitalia.

In my opinion they should let Alitalia go bankrupt and then restart a national airline in the way like it happened with SNBA, or like with Swiss (but axe the most unprofitable parts). Or maybe let a part of the company survive to take over the most profitable parts from Alitalia.

Only time will tell what happens.

sn-remember · Post by **sn-remember** » 17 Apr 2005, 12:40

Ozzie1969 wrote:
dna wrote:I don't think national pride should be taken into consideration, as it does not represent any economic value in the company books.

Let's face it. Alitalia has been an inefficient company for as long as anyone can remember, so why on earth should it survive? Why should airlines be different from any other companies (with the exception of public transport and health services). I hope Europe takes a tough stance if the Italian government decides to intervene yet again. Just sell it off to the highest bidder or toss it on the scrap heap.

md95 wrote:Pride in an airlines may be was good years ago, when nationalistic values prevailed. But today who cares about the name of the carrier if the service is good! Why, as a tax payer should I shoulder the cost of a fancy, but inproductive, airlines?
Well said, both of you! It's good to see that some people still let common sense prevail.

Yes weel said but ..............as it is now Alitalia is hardly sellable.
So if the italians want to save their airlines industry, I think they better first try bringing the company profitable in order to negociate a more promising take over and a possible rebirth of their industry.

Otherwise they will have the belgian situation: An airlines industry in dire straights and most of the traffic sucked away by neighbouring hubs;
- the az Skyteam friends at cdg, ams (we appreciate their diligent effectiveness

- the Star rivals from Zur, Muc, vie.
Just name them they are already tasting blood...
And winning a sort of "azba" comfort prize is hardly an achievement don't you think so ?
snba: twice the size of luxair

md95 · Post by **md95** » 27 Apr 2005, 22:38

Italian industry is Alenia, Augusta, Aermacchi, etc and they don't have anything to do with Alitalia. Alitalia is an airline supposed to offer a service of good quality and cost. If it does not, than let somebody else do it.

regi · Post by **regi** » 27 Apr 2005, 23:38

I have sworn to use every opportunity to kick back at that lousy company called Alitalia. Some years ago, I started my holiday with a real ticket in hand at the check in at Brussels airport, still the old terminal. "You are not in the system" was the only thing that the Alitalia woman could say in broken English.
A small discussion started without succes. She didn't find it necesarry to call a supervisor. But when I jumped over the counter of her desk , there was immediately a supervisor available, he was just behind a door at the back. I got immediatley a seat. (as far as I know, there are still no laws in Belgium which forbid citizens to jump over desks to clarify things in a more direct way)
Well done.
The first flight on a MD-80 was okay.
The second flight from the new Rome airport was in an old 747, dirty , smokey, just a piece of crap.
But arriving in Thailand, it got worse. I was sick. I ended up in a local hospital with a drain in my arm. Food poisoning. Good start of my holiday. I shitted out my intestines. I shitted blood.
My family got their luggage cracked open at Rome with damage beyond repair. Alitalia didn't want to give any reward, neither an explanation.
Alitalia: get lost.

Aviation24.be

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