September 11th was the ABSOLUTE WORST DAY OF MY LIFE as it was for most other Americans and maybe some of you. I can not describe to you the fear I had on that horrific day. I never want to see that happen again and if preventing it means that a KLM 747 has to fly back to AMS, well than so be it.
But does it make sense that the plane has to fly back to AMS when it does not either land in the US or why not escort it with your AIRFORCE arsenal till it was out of the US airspace.
September 11th was the ABSOLUTE WORST DAY OF MY LIFE as it was for most other Americans and maybe some of you. I can not describe to you the fear I had on that horrific day. I never want to see that happen again and if preventing it means that a KLM 747 has to fly back to AMS, well than so be it.
But does it make sense that the plane has to fly back to AMS when it does not either land in the US or why not escort it with your AIRFORCE arsenal till it was out of the US airspace.
Maybe because the Dutch Airforce, Navy and Marines are based in Iraq and Afhanistan at he moment, and that military action ( the escort ) against an allied national carrier would become an big political problem? Its als politics!
If you go through any newspaper in most countries over a year you will finds a story about some journalist getting through security with a knife or making it into the cockpit of a plane inthe middle of the night ro whatever. Trying to expose security lapses....its not just a Dutch issue - it is the same everywhere. As soon as humans are involved in a process then human error can and will occur. How many news crews tell you stories of how they got caught at security in an aiport? None. Its not news. They get caught with pocket knife, get it taken off them, trya gain a week later. So using that as a basis for saying the US was right to send this back is nonsense. These two men were ok to go to London, Holland, Mexico but are not allowed in the AIR above the US? Paranoia is VERY dangerous, you start seeing danger where there isn;t any.
The show of "Nova" of yesterday evening about this KLM flight.
Also a passenger, Frederick Hennekens from Antwerpen, who was on this flight will give more clarifications about the flight.
So they indeed did NOT check the list. Although I am still not trying to defend the US, I do think that the US have a right to decide who flies through their airspace.
I do however think that the US should have thought about checking transit flights from the beginning, and not suddenly wake up, and decide to turn back a plane at the last moment.
They did not check the list because it is not requested by US Law (look also CNN report) (only in- and outbound flight are to be checked)and, if you read correctly the NOS article, you will see they will check in the future only for practical reasons.
You are totally right saying that a country has the right to decide who flies through their airspace, especially a commercial plane of an allied country which sent their young people to be killed in Irak for the US oil industry.
Having the right to do something and systematically rely on that right to put obstacles on ALLIED business or travel (similar happened also to BA and AF) are quite different.
They seem to forget too easily that the planes of 9/11 were DOMESTIC flights !!!!!
Let them continue this paranoia and they will get more isolated than they are already!
Earthman, the above information you give is not correct.
KLM doens't admit that it was wrong. At the contrary: KLM and the Dutch authorities now say that KLM did not made a mistake by not checking the the U.S. list "no entry" (please note: a list with 70.000 names!).
KLM simply surrenders: they say that don't want their passengers to be hijacked again by the U.S., and only therefore will provide the list of their passengers to the U.S. That is what the Dutch journalist says: "eieren voor zijn geld", "it doesn't matter who's right, we just look at our own profity as from now".
There was no legal ground to return the plane, like CNN says today. But the official state terrorism that was used by the U.S. last weekend worked: as from now, every airline will give the U.S. the information they want.
If the U.S. want to win the war against terrorism, they should regard their allied partners with more respect.
I realize my mistake, it seemed to me so obvious that the US no-fly list applied to all aircraft travelling through US airspace, not just those landing there. I can't imagine what they must have been thinking, coming up with an idea like that. Good thing (for them) they finally woke up. Bad for the people (and horses) on that flight. In light of this, what the US should have done is send a fighter escort, instead of turning back the plane. KLM should do what a true American would do: sue the bastards.
My apologies to KLM. (But not to the Schiphol border patrol, they really do have problems that need to be solved.)
In light of this, what the US should have done is send a fighter escort, instead of turning back the plane
Then they would have some problems with there Dutch parlement and the Dutch allied forces ( navy, airforce and marine corps ) in Iraq, Afghanistand, Former Yougoslavia ( dutch army ) and Nigeria ( navy and marine corps ). Its not nice to escort youre national partner with fighters, and at the same time working with he forces together in war zone.
especially a commercial plane of an allied country which sent their young people to be killed in Irak for the US oil industry.
I am, by all means, not defending our President's decision, but what does this have to do with the topic? Please people, lets keep to the topic and not get into political decisions for wars. Thanks.
"What's this button do?? I don't know, push it and find out................."
I think a fighter escort would only create trouble if they actually shot down the plane. Otherwise it's just the air force burning a lot of fuel.
And a few air force pilots getting bored out of their mind flying alongside a 747 for hours.
And a few passengers getting nervous.
It wouldn't be the first or the last time an airliner would get a fighter escort it didn't ask for, it even happens in Holland.
I think a fighter escort would have been appropriate. But you don't need to hang the F-15's on the Jumbo's wingtips. Let them fly a mile or so behind the Jumbo, and when the situation is getting out of control (aircraft deviates from it's course and is heading towards a sensitive point + there is conformation that the communication between cockpit and ATC has been cut, or there has been a highjack alert). But when the situation is getting out of control (which I highly doubt) they could have resolved it in a matter of minute. But when nothing would have happened the fighters just would go home without ever coming into the passengers sight. So the passengers never notice anything and won't be scared. The cockpit crew would be the only one to know about their escort.
I don't believe in defending the US under the eyes of everybody, I believe more in security which is "achter de schermen" (does anyone a translation for that?), so when it can't be seen it doesn't create fear with the public, but because it is there it is just as safe (or even safer) then the current security which can be seen by the public. Like TSA, "Please put your shoes of". Yeah right
That won't help, but a low profile security could pick out real threaths without needing to frighten other people and/or the general public.
CNN, 11th April: http://edition.cnn.com/2005/US/04/11/kl ... index.html:
"Currently, the United States requires international airlines to make certain that passengers on flights to and from the United States are not on a list of suspected terrorists. But no such check is required if a plane is transiting -- flying over the country without landing."
CNN 12APR wrote:U.S. officials said Mexico provided the names after accessing the KLM list and comparing it with a list of suspected terrorists. Such sharing of information is allowed under U.S.-Mexican security agreements, they said.
I wonder why suddently, US has the feeling to ask Mexico the list of the passenger...
CNN 12APR wrote:The plane, which was in Canadian airspace when U.S. officials denied entry, returned to the Netherlands. It had 278 people and 15 horses onboard.
I'm going to kick the buttock to the next guy who hurt an horse .
Q: Who will pay the bill finally?
A: KLM of course !
Q: Why it never happens to a US carrier?
A: It's part of the strategy to make the US carriers more attractive.
KLM avait indiqué lundi enquêter pour essayer de comprendre comment les autorités américaines ont eu accès à une liste de passagers ne les concernant pas.
