747 Advanced Decision Day

bits44 · Post by **bits44** » 27 Jan 2005, 13:53

Looks like the 747ADV may get the go ahead

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/b ... ing27.html

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/ABPub/ ... 161851.gif

Post by **speedbird1** » 27 Jan 2005, 15:01

I don't think Boeing have a choice really. It would make good buisness sense. Otherwise Airbus could corner the market for the next few years.

Emirates

Badabing · Post by **Badabing** » 27 Jan 2005, 16:53

Emirates wrote:Otherwise Airbus could corner the market for the next few years.

Emirates

Hasn't it already ?!

bits44 · Post by **bits44** » 28 Jan 2005, 14:14

Badabing wrote:
Emirates wrote:Otherwise Airbus could corner the market for the next few years.

Emirates

Hasn't it already ?!

apparently not!

FOC150 · Post by **FOC150** » 28 Jan 2005, 20:09

I knew it would happen. It's logical.

Knight255 · Post by **Knight255** » 28 Jan 2005, 22:08

The supposed seating capacity will fit right in-between the 777-300/A340-600 market and the A380 market. Thus, splitting the playing field even furthur.

HorsePower · Post by **HorsePower** » 28 Jan 2005, 22:37

The right question isn't "Is Boeing will go with the 747Adv?" but "Is Boeing will go with a completly new wing or just a modified one?".

Boeing doesn't want to put too much money on this project. This is really important to have a complete new designed wing for two reason:

-the current one isn't really efficient compared to the actual standards. If Boeing really wants to compete with Airbus, they need a compete new wing and a complete new tail also(777 shape for both).

-the current wing height doesn't allow the Trent 1000/GEnx fan size (ground allowance on the outer engines). this means RR/GE-PW have to rezize their fan diameter on B747Adv. Reducing the fan size will reduce the dilution rate. Reducing the dilution rate will increase the fuel cusumption of the engine. Moreover, you will lose the engine commonalty with B7E7 (787).

my 0,02 €

Seb.

Knight255 · Post by **Knight255** » 28 Jan 2005, 23:16

I looked at an article and it said that it would probably incorporate raked wingtips. Whether or not they will redesign the whole wing, I don't know. They may just use composites in place of aluminum-alloys on the wing to make it lighter. With the engine clearance though, something will have to be changed.

HorsePower · Post by **HorsePower** » 28 Jan 2005, 23:27

Unfortunately, I think they are going to keep the *old* wing. They already asked engines manufacturers to redesign the fan diameter. As you said, she will be fitted with racked wingtips. I don't know exactly how much is the span stretch (about 3 m on each wing). It means a B747Adv can't go into most of the maintenance hangers (which have been designed for B747 classics). Nowdays, it's hard enough to put a B747-400 into such hanger! That's why I think Boeing should be more aggressive and going with a totally new wing.

Regards

Seb.

Knight255 · Post by **Knight255** » 29 Jan 2005, 00:08

You make a very good point about the maintenance hangars. Another problem that may arise with the 747Advanced (and it can already be seen with the A380) is gate clearances at airports. If the wings are wider, fewer planes will fit at a terminal. Many problems arise when something gets bigger!!!

HorsePower · Post by **HorsePower** » 29 Jan 2005, 01:05

Span of a B747-400 is 64.44m
Span of an A380-800/-900 is 79.8m

I think they can spread tne wing till 70.0m without major problems. I don't know too much about gate allowance but it depend of each airport. At some terminals, a 747Adv could use a 747-400 position, at some you will need some modifications, at some you will need a 380 position.

BTW, an other advantage to put a new "777" designed wing will move forward the "center of dynamic*". This allows Boeing to put a single plug section with upper deck instead of two plugs forward and rear the wing box. This allows some more seats.
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/ABPub/ ... 161851.gif

*i don't know if it is the right world in english, it means "centre de
poussée" in french. Don't forget CoG is ALWAYS rear the CoD on a commercial plane.

The sweep angle is (at 25% of MAC):
37.5 on B747 (too much for an aircraft cruising at 0.85M)
33.5 on A380
31.5 on B777

I think the B747 initially got a 37°5 SA to reduce span wing because of gate clearance (it was a really huge aircraft in 1970!). Nowdays, they are allowed to spread it to 80m if they want, so why do they stuck again and again with this :censored: 37°5!!!

Seb.

Knight255 · Post by **Knight255** » 29 Jan 2005, 01:52

They're the engineers, not us. Perhaps there is something that they know that we don't.

HorsePower · Post by **HorsePower** » 29 Jan 2005, 02:09

It's all about money:
If they design new wings, it will be very expensive for Boeing. So the Adv will be sold at an higher price. If the price increase, Boeing will loose customers, it's simple as that.

In one hand, you have an affordable B747 who got a slighty higher fuel consumption. In the other, you have an expensive aircraft, but with better performances (fuel consumption, slighty better range, slighty higher MTOW).

So in this calculation, you have to forecast the average oil prices for the 20 years, and I personnaly, I think the prices won't fall.

Seb.

bits44 · Post by **bits44** » 30 Jan 2005, 02:36

Boeing will be releasing their quarterly financial results this Wednesday

Its expected that CEO Harry Stonecipher will announce the decision on the go ahead or not of the 747 Advanced.

Avro · Post by **Avro** » 30 Jan 2005, 10:40

The B747Adv project is very interesting. I'm pretty sure that Boeing will go ahead with the program, certainly if they want to keep a "mega" plane to compete against the A380.

If they want to be have success with the B747Adv project then they should definately be agressive, and try to innovate with new materials (read: more composite) and other stuff.

Let's wait and see....

Chris

Knight255 · Post by **Knight255** » 30 Jan 2005, 17:37

It's taking a middle ground between Airbus's idea of HUGE planes to decrease traffic congestion, and Boeing's idea of passenger choice (meaning higher frequency flights to give the passenger a choice). It looks promising, but I would like to see more info. Any ideas if they may make it a fly-by-wire design????

HorsePower · Post by **HorsePower** » 30 Jan 2005, 17:45

I read an A.net thread where it is said that it won't have FBW. personnally, I think they will go with FBW.

Makes your choice.

Seb.

PS: I'm going to read again the infos I've got on 747-Adv

CaptainEd · Post by **CaptainEd** » 30 Jan 2005, 18:03

I hope they go ahead with it. That A380 appears to be awesome competition.

The A380 still may develop some major problems, as radical new designs often do, such as the DH Comet, and the SST.

HorsePower · Post by **HorsePower** » 30 Jan 2005, 18:24

CaptainEd wrote: hope they go ahead with it. That A380 appears to be awesome competition.

Don't worry about that. 8)

CaptainEd wrote:The A380 still may develop some major problems, as radical new designs often do, such as the DH Comet, and the SST.

Ed, the Comet was the first ever commercial plane who was pressurised. The SST is still really a special bird...
The only special thing about the A380 is it's size, this is not a revolution but an evolution. Every new aircraft got some problems during the firsts years of service, but it won't be the commercial failure of Concorde or Comet.

I do some rechearch about the 747Adv and I have found nothing about FBW, only it will have the "7E7 cockpit". Unfortunately, I confirm that Boeing will go with the "old wing" design (37.5° @ 25% of MAC). Cruise speed @ 0.86M. Composite racked wing tips, modified 7E7 engines, etc...

Regards

Seb.

CaptainEd · Post by **CaptainEd** » 30 Jan 2005, 18:39

We shall wait and see.

I wish the best of luck to the both of them.

Does either have a F/E station?

I really missed the FE when I flew the B-767.

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