BEAP to start before end Dec 04

[sn26567]

I would just like to say that the good people of BEAP had better make sure that their use of the Dutch language on their site is correct. Otherwise, some people might just get the impression that the good people at BEAP aren't too concerned about attracting Dutch-speaking costumers.

I think that the "good people" of BEAP are aviation enthusiasts that count as many Dutch-speaking as French-speaking persons. They want to launch an airline that proudly carries the Belgian colours over the world.

If you start using such arguments, you could similarly say that "the good people of SN BA had better make sure that their use of the French language on their site is correct. Otherwise, some people might just get the impression that the good people at SN BA aren't too concerned about attracting French-speaking costumers".

But most customers do not really stop at such arguments. (I certainly don't). They want to be flown from A to B in the best possible conditions, and they don't really care about the language of the crew or the website as long as they understand it, unless they want to engage in political games that we don't play at Luchtzak.

[Ozzie1969]

I would just like to say that the good people of BEAP had better make sure that their use of the Dutch language on their site is correct. Otherwise, some people might just get the impression that the good people at BEAP aren't too concerned about attracting Dutch-speaking costumers.

I think that the "good people" of BEAP are aviation enthusiasts that count as many Dutch-speaking as French-speaking persons. They want to launch an airline that proudly carries the Belgian colours over the world.

If you start using such arguments, you could similarly say that "the good people of SN BA had better make sure that their use of the French language on their site is correct. Otherwise, some people might just get the impression that the good people at SN BA aren't too concerned about attracting French-speaking costumers".

But customers do not really stop at such arguments. They want to be flown from A to B in the best possible conditions, and they don't really care about the language of the crew or the website as long as they understand it, unless they want to engage in political games that we don't play at Luchtzak.

Well, don't tell me that. Tell that to BA if it concerns you.

And who are you to say what customers want or don't want. Imagine all flight personnel on board SN Brussels Airlines flights speaking Chinese only. Would nobody react to this? All flight personnel on board Air France flights speaking Hindi only? Oh right, I guess the French wouldn't protest...

You are simply trying to ridicule my arguments by calling them "political games". Is it really to much to ask that a Belgian airline should be able to use proper Dutch on their website and in real life? Apparently that in itself is enough to get "Vlaams Belang" thrown in your face. It's time some people took a good look at themselves in the mirror and ask themselves where all their hatred comes from.

(Besides, I don't think a moderator should delete part of a post, without giving any indicating that the post has been moderated and why. If you want to delete posts or parts of a post, that's up to you. It's your forum, you can do with it what you like. But if you invite others to join your forum, you might try to consider their part of the story. And I'm going to shut up about it now, because I find it extremely boring that I should have to be labeled "racist" because of all this.)

[blackhawk]

BEAP: new Belgian airline

3/12/04 - Belgium will soon boast a new airline. A group of former Sabena employees who have joined forces in the Belgian Employees Aviation Promotion believe flights could start soon.

The Belgian Employees Aviation Promotion or BEAP hopes to be able to set up the new airline before the year is out. The new airline has now secured the necessary financial backing. It will be based at Zaventem airport outside Brussels and will target the passenger market.

BEAP staff will be recruited from those effected by the recent bankruptcies within the Belgian airlines business. BEAP will concentrate on routes to West Africa and this month will see the first flight from Zaventem to Togo.

Yves Leblicq, BEAP's new executive president told the Belgian press agency Belga on Friday that the company's business plan envisages the recruitment of 350 staff during the first three years of operations.

BEAP has been in existence since 2002. Initially the aim was to secure the best working conditions for former Sabena staff on the creation of a new airline.

The birth of a new Belgian airline adds a new chapter to the chequered history of Belgian aviation. Sabena was set up by the Belgian state in the 20's to ensure services between Brussels and the then Belgian Congo in Africa. In a world where size was becoming increasingly important Sabena linked up with Air France after Frenchspeaking circles in Belgium had vetoed an alliance with KLM of the Netherlands. Air France and Sabena later separated company.

In November 2001 the Belgian flag carrier Sabena that was then partly owned by Swissair and the Belgian state went bust. It was the biggest bankruptcy in Belgian history with the loss of 10,000 jobs.

Court action is presently underway in Switzerland. The Sabena official receivers believe that Sabena's erstwhile private sector partner and biggest shareholder exploited the Belgian air carrier finally resulting in its bankruptcy.

After Sabena went to the wall a new Belgian airline was created SN Brussels Airlines. SN Brussels concentrates on the business traveller and operates a network of services linking Brussels with other European capitals. The company has plans to merge with the other big Brussels airline Sir Richard Branson's Virgin Express that currently concentrates on the cheaper end of the market.

Other Belgian escapades into the world of aviation have been less successful. Both Citybird and Freddy Van Gavere's Delsey Airlines failed earlier.

Source: http://www.rvi.be/

Ex-Sabena workers reach for the skies once more


3 December 2004

BRUSSELS — Former employees of defunct Belgian flagship airline Sabena hope to have a new carrier up and running before the end of the year.

The initiative comes from the 1,486-member Belgian Employees Aviation Promotion, founded in 2002 a few months after Sabena went bankrupt.

On its official website, www.beap.be, the group announced the new carrier should be able to offer flights out of Zaventum airport, outside Brussels, before year's end.

The airline's owner will be Beap Holding SA, the holding company created by the employees' group in February 2002. The group did not disclose the name of the new carrier.

The group said it hopes that every Belgian citizen will recognise the association's "incredible determination" to prolong a heritage that is "necessary to maintain at all costs."

SN Brussels, the successor to Sabena, is owned by private investors including Belgian-Dutch financial services group Fortis and Tractebel SA, Belgium's largest electricity provider.

Last autumn SN Brussels sealed a deal to merge with Sir Richard Branson's low-cost carrier Virgin Express.

[sn26567]

Ozzie1969 from Brugge, Flanders,

You ask who I am? The simple answer is sn26567 from Rosières/Rozieren, Belgium. But I am also an administrator of this site, and if I feel that a post or part of a post does not fit within the forum rules, I delete it, with or without warning, whether it comes from you, Ericairlines or anybody else. These rules are supposed to be known by everyone who participates in this forum (exactly like the law).

I will add that the first rule of this forum (I did not write them) is:

1. Show respect to the administrators: they are making this place very enjoyable and they are doing this for free.

I maintain that there is no room here for political and racist remarks, and that language feuds are banned here.

If you cannot abide by these rules, you are always free to go to another forum to see whether the grass is greener there.

Back to your post.

Tell that to BA if it concerns you

Why should it concern me? I speak five languages and I never ever had a language problem with an SN crew or the crew of any other airline in the world.

Imagine all flight personnel on board SN Brussels Airlines flights speaking Chinese only. Would nobody react to this? All flight personnel on board Air France flights speaking Hindi only? Oh right, I guess the French wouldn't protest...

Come on, be reasonable. Nobody ever hinted that such a situation could occur. If you read me correctly, I said that a customer should be satisfied if he and the reservation, check-in and flight personnel can understand each other. You have to be tolerant and accept that not everybody in the world will spaek your mother tongue. Mutual comprehension will come from mutual good will.

But remember, the first post of you that I deleted was insulting for former Sabena and CityBird staff. That is not the right way to promote mutual understanding.

Is it really to much to ask that a Belgian airline should be able to use proper Dutch on their website and in real life?

A Belgian airline should indeed be able to use proper Dutch, French, English and German. But we are not in a perfect world, and I will never complain if airline staff do their best to speak in a language that they don't master completely.

Apparently that in itself is enough to get "Vlaams Belang" thrown in your face.

I will not tolerate political remarks like the one that you mentioned. I have therefore deleted that post.

I hope this answers your comments. Let's go back to the BEAP topic now. The important thing is not whether they speak Dutch or French or Swahili, the most important is that they want to launch a new airline in Belgium. And that is great news for Belgian Aviation, exactly like when Freddy Van Gaever launched VG Airlines.

[SN30952]

What's wrong if we say that? Tu imaginer quoi quand compangie aériene faire messagerie avec erreurs comme ceçi?

LX-LGX, Did you learn French from a Flemish missionary in Togo?
This is 'Lack of Consideration" also called lack of respect from a start up airline, indeed. Big communication strategy error. Some people do not seem to realise that. (remember the guy who started a mobile phone locator service, few months ago)
This is not about politics, but about elementary respect.
How can a body earn respect, when it doesn't show respect to others.
Great communicators speak the language of the biggest audience, or try isn't it Elio?

Is this comm error maybe a token of incompetence in communication?
Some will have noticed: everybody can fly, but can everybody communicate?
eg When the Uzbekis started flying to Germany, they did not communicate in Uzbek, but they hired a good communication agent.

Give the BEAP some breathing space now, and we'll see if they are able to correct their communication strategy.

Look for instances how Uzbekistan Airways communicates in Greece

[Boeing767copilot]

The first flight of the new Belgian airline company BEAP (Belgian Employees Aviation Promotion) takes place on 23 December next. The initial capital amounts to approximately 25 millions euro. According to Yves Leblicq (BEAP), it's the intention opening an airbridge between Brussels and West-Africa. The flights to Lomé (Togo) and Bamako (Mali) will be carried out with two Boeings 767-300 from BelgiumExel, a daughtercompany of the Dutch ExelAviationGroup that at present still with Dutch AOC operates.
Leblicq: "Our project has been examined during two years on its qualification chances. There is enormously much question for flights between West-Africa and Brussels. We will fill the breach in the market" In Africa they will operate with two Boeing 737-300. They will link Lomé and Bamako with Conakry, Dakar, Ouagadougou, Abidjan, Accra, Lagos, Libreville and Kinshasa. As from march next year theu start flights between Brussels to Beirut and Dubai, possibly with a extension to Peking in China.

[Jense]

Is this getting a topic of black against white, member against admin, french against flemish? ( fftopic: )

Back on-topic now; I don't know why they are opening a little African network since there is absolutely no money over there

greettzzz

[SN30952]

The important thing is not whether they speak Dutch or French or Swahili, the most important is that they want to launch a new airline in Belgium.

Honestly I would not feel safe if they spoke Swahili in that aircraft of theirs. By the way they use Dutch, I might deduct I would not get much from their Swahili*, neither would their passengers on flights on their intra-ex french colonial influence network.

Speaking the language of your passengers is of main safety concern on board of any commercial airliner. It is of utmost importance.

It is also a decisive factor by the client to decide whether or not he will fly that airline..
And:
Language is the spirit that distinguishes human from animal.

George A. Kennedýs Comparative Rhetoric was the first study about a cross-cultural overview of rhetoric as a universal feature of communication. Kennedy’s work begins with a theory of rhetoric as a form of mental and emotional energy that is transmitted from a speaker or writer to an audience or reader through a speech or text......

What is language?
Don't ask for more.... Let's go back to the aviation level of the start up and see what mental and emotional energy they put in their project.

As far as I remember the traffic in and from/to "ex french colonial influence" West Africa, as well as Beirut, is mainly under strong french-cultural and commercial influence. Dubai is totally [ab-xx-sorry]out of this sfere.
And flying to Beijing should rather be from/to the same area as many african airlines already operate that relation. The last one to start a twice weekly operation was Air Zim., last week. So expect fierce competition on that one, as mixing african yields and euro-yield on one flight is unworkable.

*... and it is for already 20 years ago too I heard or spoke Swahili!

[ERICAIRLINES]

part 2 back to real issue


beap will have to market those flights in his main market wich is Paris and France..like snba does in fact connecting paris gare du nord via thalys directly to bru..our main competitor is not snba but..air france/klm group...air afrique is gone,there is also a potential in west africa for beap if they succeed
we don t launch airline every day in this country,though let s encourage beapers ,bru desperatly needs more long hauls flights,and i m sure that they will get full biac support..
do you think code shares flights with snba or thalys feeding from paris could be possible on the medium term ?
awaiting your ''airlines only'' answers,and let s open the debate !!

[AFApresident]

Hey,


I´m excited about the launch of a new airline out of brussels. However I have a couple of concerns/questions.



Are they going to use belgian pilots for the B737 flights out of Togo to other african cities or african pilots? In the first case they have the extra costs of possibly moving entire families to africa.

Secondly 2 B767s operated by the Excell group ...(i start to wonder what jobs BEAP will offer, as the excell planes will be flown by excell pilots and flight attendants.)



Thirdly I think it would have been wiser to go for a part of the asian market (and codeshare with SN) rather then some flights to western africa without having any feeders. Maybe I´m naive but how many people would want to fly on Beap from Brussels to say Abidjan, Kinshasha, dakar etc when you have direct flights with SN? You would only do this extra stop if the fare is lower.
Similarly for the Paris markets. Who would want to go from Paris to Brussels to Togo to Dakar. If there are probably direct flights from Paris to Dakar? Unless your an aviation geek or the fare is a bargain, I doubt I would make so many stops.



I hope this works out for them, but I would have commenced flights to China and India and codeshare with SN for some feeder traffic.

[blackhawk]

It seems there is a topic concerning BEAP at Ter Zake this evening:

Filip van Rossem, ex-sabéniens, heeft een nieuwe luchtvaartmaatschappij in het leven geroepen. BEAP, Belgian Aviation Pride, zal, vanaf het einde van dit jaar al, vliegen op verschillende bestemmingen in Afrika. Wat bezielt een man om na zoveel mislukte pogingen, het toch nog een keertje te proberen. Hij komt het zelf vertellen in de studio.

[liebensd]

There seems to be a problem for BEAP, that is what was told in the 19H30 Kanaal-Z news.
The Belgian gouvrnement told that BEAP has still not make a request for a AOC. They need a Belgian AOC to fly to Lome in Togo. The dutch, Holland Excell, AOC should be not valid for flights from Brussels to Togo.

Greetz,

Dave

[ERICAIRLINES]

Hey,


I´m excited about the launch of a new airline out of brussels. However I have a couple of concerns/questions.



Are they going to use belgian pilots for the B737 flights out of Togo to other african cities or african pilots? In the first case they have the extra costs of possibly moving entire families to africa.

Secondly 2 B767s operated by the Excell group ...(i start to wonder what jobs BEAP will offer, as the excell planes will be flown by excell pilots and flight attendants.)



Thirdly I think it would have been wiser to go for a part of the asian market (and codeshare with SN) rather then some flights to western africa without having any feeders. Maybe I´m naive but how many people would want to fly on Beap from Brussels to say Abidjan, Kinshasha, dakar etc when you have direct flights with SN? You would only do this extra stop if the fare is lower.
Similarly for the Paris markets. Who would want to go from Paris to Brussels to Togo to Dakar. If there are probably direct flights from Paris to Dakar? Unless your an aviation geek or the fare is a bargain, I doubt I would make so many stops.



I hope this works out for them, but I would have commenced flights to China and India and codeshare with SN for some feeder traffic.

i agree with you ,we need asian destinations out of bru..but don t forget that sn will never work in code share with a start up airline..they will wait a while first to see if they are doin well

and pax are not ready to fly on airlines wich don t offer frequent flyers points and are not member of one of the three majors( star,sky,one w)...

main problem for them will be feeding those flights out of bru and to find interlining.....and in bru there is little choice left out of snba/vex group

about the jobs yes they will probably hire very few employees when they start flying....even less ex sabéniens or ex city bird ....

i find this project not very well balanced,but i hope i m wrong ?
with 25 millions euros they have a very limited choice left

point to point long h flights can not survive without feeding and defeeding

more choice to FIH will always be welcomed even via via....but it is probable that snba will react ..if beap does not go bust rapidly ,they will start an airfares war ,good for the pax but not for the weakest of the two companies

[Avro]

Seeing there project, the airline could definitely be called AfricExcell if they go on with it.

Maybe I´m naive but how many people would want to fly on Beap from Brussels to say Abidjan, Kinshasha, dakar etc when you have direct flights with SN? You would only do this extra stop if the fare is lower

I partially agree with you. People will probably not want to travel from BRU to FIH via Lomé. But I guess that BEAP could be more lucky the other way around. If they have some feeder flights in Africa they could attract a lot of African that could travel to BRU at a relatively cheap price.

Anyway, about the African destinations I still have my doubts. But talking about Beirut, Dubai and China sounds much more realistic as here isn't any connections to those countries for the moment and since the market seems to be bigger out there compared to Lomé.

do you think code shares flights with snba or thalys feeding from paris could be possible on the medium term ?

Why not, but I don't see SN putting its code on an BEAP flight if its operated by a HollandExcell plane which doesn't offer a descent business class at all.

I really encourage this project but still have my doubts. In my opinion it would have been much wiser to start flying with one or two long haul planes to destinations in the gulf region and in Asia. This with a good service (business and all) and then codesharing with SN. This would sound more realistic to me, but I'm not an expert so don't shoot me if Iamb wrong

Chris

[SN30952]

part 2 back to real issue
beap will have to market those flights in his main market wich is Paris and France..

Feeding Lome and Bamako flights from the Brussels hinterland and by rail will that be enough to fill the 767? Or will there also be traffic from tour operators to some tourist destinations?

They will link Lomé and Bamako with Conakry, Dakar, Ouagadougou, Abidjan, Accra, Lagos, Libreville and Kinshasa.

Lagos via Lomé and Bamako?
Connecting to Libreville and Kinshasa is not so comfy as a direct PAR to Libreville or Kinshasa flight.

What are the hub services in Lomé and Bamako?.
Lomé (LFW) is 6km (4 miles) northeast of the city. Airport facilities include bar, restaurant, snack bar, shops, bank, post office, duty-free shop and car hire.
BEAP is not making its life easy with these (mini) hubs.
BAMAKO SENOU: Mali, ICAO ID: GABS, Time UTC 0
Military -civil joint use airport, operating hours 24 H
Runways
ID dims Surface PCN ILS
06/24 2706 x 45 meters ASPHALT 059FBXT YES
Mali is a developing West African nation with a democratic government. Facilities for tourism are limited. The capital is Bamako. Bamako (BKO) is 15km (9 miles) from the city.
Mali’s national airline was Air Mali (L9)*. Internal: Light aircraft can also be chartered from the Société des Transports Aériens (STA). Mali used to have a share in the multinational airline, Air Afrique (RK). Air Afrique operated flights between Mali and New York via Dakar (Senegal) or Abidjan (Côte d’Ivoire).

LOME TOKOIN: Togo, ICAO ID: DXXX, Time UTC 0
Military -civil joint use airport, operating hours 24 H ?
Runway
ID Dims Surface PCN ILS
04/22 3001 x 45 meters ASPHALT 059FBXT NO
Local carrier is Air Togo YT
Internal Air Togo runs services between Niamtougou and Lomé.
Togo used to be a shareholder in Air Afrique (RK).
Togo shares borders with Burkina Faso, Benin and Ghana. (I told you Ghana is everywhere!)


Dakar, Abidjan (not for the moment) = Tourist and 'family visit' destinations (lower yield)
The others are more business and 'family visit' destinations

...awaiting your ''airlines only'' answers,and let s open the debate !!

You started it, didn't you? So do not provoke nor put the administrator in a difficult situation. Refrain from racist accusations. Your feelings show. Be more objective too. Show respect to the administrators and the readers.

*Air Mali was considered unsafe: U.S. government personnel were prohibited from flying on Air Mali until further notice. The Department of State recommended that U.S. citizens avoid traveling on Air Mali for the same reasons.

[beaucaire]

There seems to be a problem for BEAP, that is what was told in the 19H30 Kanaal-Z news.
The Belgian gouvrnement told that BEAP has still not make a request for a AOC. They need a Belgian AOC to fly to Lome in Togo. The dutch, Holland Excell, AOC should be not valid for flights from Brussels to Togo.

Greetz,

Dave

If this should be true the makers of the business plan better go back to school...
The first thing in aviation-other than finding investors - is to make shure the legal framwork for any AOL is granted.Without that,you remain a travel agent and don't control your own airline but are rather a leassor of air-services provided by a third party.I would have assumed the scenario for this project is not as blue-eyed as the rumours let fear...

[ERICAIRLINES]

thanks for your details on both lome and bamako which are certainly not touristic spots....

i almost agree with you about asia and middle east destinations..but beap focused on africa first and this since 2002

[ERICAIRLINES]

seen 'ter zaak' tonight...it seems to be quiet a confusion ,about aoc ,about timing,about airexcel,about staffs....
more details later ...

[SN30952]

Yes Beaucaire, If this should be true the makers of the business plan better go back to school...
The first thing in aviation-other than finding investors - is to make shure the legal framwork for any AOL is granted...
As they say in cooking class: check first if all your ingredients are fresh

[Zorba]

Indeed, there are still a lot "maybe"'-s. "They are expecting money from Africa, they are waiting for the confirmation of Excel Group.

Why do they say now that they will fly in December, when they don't have even the whole capital??

Bad move ...