Latest news would be that the aircraft was going too slow, about 55 km/h for safe take off.
How did the investigators figure that one out, fm the FDR, safety camera, or the last conversations between the tower and the crew?
I suppose that someone knew in the control tower what happened in those last moments.
Nobody mentioned his witness statement in the various newsflashes.
Someone reported earlier on the forum that most likely no vital info to the investigation could be expected.
Nevertheless Canada.com mentioned in their latest newsflash
quote
"John Cottreau, a spokesman for the Transportation Safety Board of Canada says they aren't for public consumption."
unquote
Also don't understand another quote in the same article:
quote
"Louis Garneau, a spokesman for Nav Canada, the private-sector agency that operates air traffic control in Canada, says any rebroadcasting of the conversations would be a breach of a federal law.
In addition, Nav Canada argues the privacy of its employees would be violated by the release of the tapes."
unquote
Thought that everything that could help the investigation would be allowed.
Perhaps there's a good explanation for all this, but still believe it's strange.
Probably the updates on the press conference will reveal more details.
MK Airlines 747 crashes Halifax , Canada
Moderator: Latest news team
Too slow
The jumbo jet rolled down the runway at 149 mph - about 35 mph slower than it should have for a safe lift-off, the MK Airlines Ltd. plane was rolling up the runway at 240 kilometers an hour - about 55 km/h slower than it should have.
"In order to get to (296 km/h) within the runway available, they needed more thrust," Fowler said.
The plane was loaded with lawn tractors, computer gear and 53,000 kilograms of seafood when it tried to leave Halifax for a flight for Spain. A 747 has a payload capacity of about 60,000 kilograms. Fowler said the total weight of the cargo had not been accurately established "but we have not said at this point that this was a factor."
Fowler refused to speculate, however, that the jet may have been overloaded.
Investigators are also considering the account of at least one airport worker who suggested the pilot might not have taxied to the very top of the 2,700-metre runway before turning and beginning his takeoff.
"In order to get to (296 km/h) within the runway available, they needed more thrust," Fowler said.
The plane was loaded with lawn tractors, computer gear and 53,000 kilograms of seafood when it tried to leave Halifax for a flight for Spain. A 747 has a payload capacity of about 60,000 kilograms. Fowler said the total weight of the cargo had not been accurately established "but we have not said at this point that this was a factor."
Fowler refused to speculate, however, that the jet may have been overloaded.
Investigators are also considering the account of at least one airport worker who suggested the pilot might not have taxied to the very top of the 2,700-metre runway before turning and beginning his takeoff.
10 tons overload blamed for plane crash
I had the news Saturday, as it was coming from Canada, it was there still Friday:
Canadian aviation officials say a Boeing 747 cargo jet that struggled to become airborne before crashing was traveling too slowly for a take-off. The rumour was: MK may have been carrying an excessive load.
Although the plane’s engines were operating normally, investigators found that it was travelling too slow to lift off safely. On Friday the TSB issued a safety notice on the proper weighting of cargoes, suggesting that the aircraft may have been overloaded by a separate handling company. Investigators have refused to confirm this as the cause of the crash.
"In order to get to (the minimum 184 mph) within the available runway, they needed more thrust," Bill Fowler of the TSBC said Friday. The jumbo jet was barely airborne when it rocketed off the end of the runway and crashed into a wooded area. He said a flight data recorder recovered from the wreckage last weekend indicated the 747's four engines were functioning normally. Fowler wouldn't speculate why the plane didn't have enough thrust.
The TSBC's analysis contrasts with initial speculation that the aircraft's cargo shifted towards the rear of the plane, throwing it off balance and causing the tail to clip the ground before sheering off.
The accident in Halifax, Nova Scotia, involving a Boeing 747-200, was the fourth time in 12 years that an aircraft owned by MK Airlines has gone down.
Although the company’s fleet is registered in Ghana, West Africa, its administrative offices are in Hartfield, East Sussex, and it files its annual accounts to Companies House in Britain.
MK Airlines transports fresh produce for UK supermarkets. It has also worked for the Ministry of Defence, carrying supplies to troops in Cyprus and the Gulf.
The company’s three previous crashes — including one fatal accident — happened in Nigeria in 1992, 1996 and 2001 and all involved planes approaching landing.
Kruger said there were “extenuating circumstances” found in each case that have led the airline to fit its fleet with enhanced ground-proximity warning systems.
Nevertheless, the Department for Transport (DfT) last week ordered the Civil Aviation Authority (CAA) to carry out a safety inspection of one of MK Airline’s planes in Britain.
Although the aircraft was later cleared for take-off, it is the third time this year that checks on the airline have been ordered by the DfT.
Last August CAA officials were unable to complete an inspection because MK Airlines moved its operations from Manston airport in Kent to Ostend, Belgium.
The DfT had sought to act on that occasion amid concerns that aviation authorities in Ghana might be failing to ensure aircraft safety.In June the department banned two Ghana Airways passenger jets from landing in Britain.
Note from Fons: I wrote on different occasions about Ghana Airways.
As said higher: On Friday the TSB have refused to confirm this as the cause of the crash.
Kruger denied that his airline had ever compromised safety and insisted that Ghana’s aviation authorities adhered to internationally recognised standards. “We have an extremely strong safety regime,” he said. “The authorities are welcome to inspect us and we are willing to co-operate fully.”
Canadian aviation officials say a Boeing 747 cargo jet that struggled to become airborne before crashing was traveling too slowly for a take-off. The rumour was: MK may have been carrying an excessive load.
Although the plane’s engines were operating normally, investigators found that it was travelling too slow to lift off safely. On Friday the TSB issued a safety notice on the proper weighting of cargoes, suggesting that the aircraft may have been overloaded by a separate handling company. Investigators have refused to confirm this as the cause of the crash.
"In order to get to (the minimum 184 mph) within the available runway, they needed more thrust," Bill Fowler of the TSBC said Friday. The jumbo jet was barely airborne when it rocketed off the end of the runway and crashed into a wooded area. He said a flight data recorder recovered from the wreckage last weekend indicated the 747's four engines were functioning normally. Fowler wouldn't speculate why the plane didn't have enough thrust.
The TSBC's analysis contrasts with initial speculation that the aircraft's cargo shifted towards the rear of the plane, throwing it off balance and causing the tail to clip the ground before sheering off.
The accident in Halifax, Nova Scotia, involving a Boeing 747-200, was the fourth time in 12 years that an aircraft owned by MK Airlines has gone down.
Although the company’s fleet is registered in Ghana, West Africa, its administrative offices are in Hartfield, East Sussex, and it files its annual accounts to Companies House in Britain.
MK Airlines transports fresh produce for UK supermarkets. It has also worked for the Ministry of Defence, carrying supplies to troops in Cyprus and the Gulf.
The company’s three previous crashes — including one fatal accident — happened in Nigeria in 1992, 1996 and 2001 and all involved planes approaching landing.
Kruger said there were “extenuating circumstances” found in each case that have led the airline to fit its fleet with enhanced ground-proximity warning systems.
Nevertheless, the Department for Transport (DfT) last week ordered the Civil Aviation Authority (CAA) to carry out a safety inspection of one of MK Airline’s planes in Britain.
Although the aircraft was later cleared for take-off, it is the third time this year that checks on the airline have been ordered by the DfT.
Last August CAA officials were unable to complete an inspection because MK Airlines moved its operations from Manston airport in Kent to Ostend, Belgium.
The DfT had sought to act on that occasion amid concerns that aviation authorities in Ghana might be failing to ensure aircraft safety.In June the department banned two Ghana Airways passenger jets from landing in Britain.
Note from Fons: I wrote on different occasions about Ghana Airways.
As said higher: On Friday the TSB have refused to confirm this as the cause of the crash.
Kruger denied that his airline had ever compromised safety and insisted that Ghana’s aviation authorities adhered to internationally recognised standards. “We have an extremely strong safety regime,” he said. “The authorities are welcome to inspect us and we are willing to co-operate fully.”
Canadian weight problems
Weights seem to be a problem is canadian aviation:
TSB /BST Air Updated: 2004-10-01 8)
Remember I posted an item after the Georgian Cessna crash:
The Transportation Safety Board of Canada (TSB) issued two recommendations concerning the use of standard passenger weights by the Canadian air industry. These recommendations arise from the investigation into last January's fatal crash of a Georgian Express Cessna 208.
CAA Updated 21 October 2004 
TSB /BST Air Updated: 2004-10-01 8) Remember I posted an item after the Georgian Cessna crash:
The Transportation Safety Board of Canada (TSB) issued two recommendations concerning the use of standard passenger weights by the Canadian air industry. These recommendations arise from the investigation into last January's fatal crash of a Georgian Express Cessna 208.
CAA Updated 21 October 2004 Halifax 747 Crash
One should be extremely careful about concluding what may or may not have caused this crash, especially when the investigators have clearly stated, that no one factor can be blamed for this accident. although there are many mitigating factors involved, no one should attempt to formulate a conclusion until all the facts are in.
The fact the aircraft did not attain V1 speed, could be caused by any number of factors, and until the facts are known, and out of respect for the families of the deceased air crew, we should all take a step back until the investigation is concluded.
The fact the aircraft did not attain V1 speed, could be caused by any number of factors, and until the facts are known, and out of respect for the families of the deceased air crew, we should all take a step back until the investigation is concluded.
Re: Halifax 747 Crash
bits44 wrote:One should be extremely careful about concluding what may or may not have caused this crash, especially when the investigators have clearly stated, that no one factor can be blamed for this accident.
Affirmative, bits44. This was not concluding, but reporting. And I also mentioned: rumour, and did not publish it as I said: I had the news Saturday, as it was coming from Canada, it was there still Friday., before I had a second source mentioning overloading. Furthermore I did not mention "10 Tons", as this wasn't confirmed. And was it metric Tons, the source was not specific.
Lets leave the conclusions to the investigators. The rumours to the tabloids.
But when Canadians mixed up gallons and kilos, that aircraft was short of fuel, remember. Strange things may happen in Canada, indeed, as in other countries. We don't turn a blind eye on that, either.
-
TCAS_climb
- Posts: 413
- Joined: 04 Jan 2004, 00:00
DU is depleted in Uranium-235.
sn26567 wrote:Didn't the El Al 747 that crashed o Amsterdam also have depleted uranium on board?
DU is radioactive. So why is it called depleted?
The potentially misleading terms "depleted" and "enriched" refer to the amount of Uranium-235, not the amount of radioactivity.
This is because it is the Uranium-235 that allows Uranium to be used in nuclear reactors or in bombs.
DU has less Uranium-235 than Yellowcake, i.e. it is depleted in Uranium-235. (As a result DU has more Uranium-238 than Yellowcake.)
Enriched Uranium has more Uranium-235 and less Uranium-238 than Yellowcake. It is enriched in Uranium-235.
Both Uranium-235 and Uranium-238 are radioactive.
Yellowcake in the USA is converted to UF6 gas and then enriched by the US Enrichment Corporation at gaseous diffusion plants located near Paducah, Kentucky and Portsmouth, Ohio. (USEC has recently announced the closure of the Paducah plant.)
The gas is separated into two streams: enriched and depleted.
15% becomes Enriched Uranium: used as fuel in nuclear reactors.
85% becomes Depleted Uranium (DU): nuclear waste.
Depleted Uranium cannot be used as fuel in a nuclear reactor or a bomb unless it undergoes enrichment.
Currently it is used in tank shells and bullets, as an aircraft counterweight and as shielding.
1 g of Uranium in Yellowcake emits around 25600 alpha particles every second.
1 g of newly created DU emits around 14600 alpha particles every second.
Storage of Radioactive material costs money, so uses are being found for DU.
As Uranium is 1.7 times as dense as lead, it is being used as a replacement for lead and other heavy metals. as in radiation shields, aircraft ballast, weapons and flywheels. (1 cm3 weighs almost
19 grammes) It is a spontaneous pyrophoric material, it inflames when reaching its target generating such heat that it explodes.
Depleted Uranium has been used in Boeing 747s to balance the aircraft's centre of gravity.DU balance weights are cadmium plated during the manufacturing process. The cadmium plating coating on the DU balance weights not only attenuate radiation emissions but also provide corrosion prevention as unprotected DU corrodes fairly rapidly, producing a black, dusty oxide. During installation, no penetration of the DU balance weights is permitted. The balance weights must not be sanded, filed, drilled, reamed or reworked in any way. The weights should fit so that they can be simply bolted into place.
On 4th October 1992 an El Al Boeing 747, containing at least 380kg of DU*, crashed in Amsterdam. The resulting fire may have been hot enough for Uranium to burn, producing Uranium Oxide, which can be inhaled. Estimates are that 225kg of depleted Uranium is still unaccounted for.
On 4 October 1992, a El Al Boeing 747 cargo plane crashed into an apartment building complex near Schiphol Airport in the Netherlands, leading to the immediate death of 43 people. The burning rate is estimated to be 0.05 kg mexp-2exp s-1, based on typical values for kerosene and chemical waste. Since the fire was in the open air, it was not oxygen limited. A stoichiometric air to fuel mass ratio is assumed, so that combustion of 1 kg kerosene results in 16 kg combustion products. The mass flows of combustion products generated in the fires were calculated at 216 kgexp s-1 and 432 kgexp s-1 for the crash and cargo sites, respectively. The heat available for plume rise per kg material burned is estimated to be 20 MJ.
The El Al cargo plane contained about 24 pieces of depleted uranium, the mass of a single piece ranging from 6 to 30 kg, with specific areas of 0.05 – 0.15 cm2 exp g-1.
Following the clean-up of the crash area, counter balance weights having a total mass of 152 kg uranium were missing.
The recent crash of a Boeing 747 in Halifax, Canada, raises a number of questions about the use of depleted uranium (DU) in airplanes. A 747 may contain as much as 1,500 kilograms (3,300 lbs.) of the material.
In 1988, American physicist Robert L. Parker wrote that in the worst-case scenario, the crash of a Boeing 747 could affect the health of 250,000 people through exposure to uranium oxide particles.
The fireball in a plane crash can reach 1,200 degrees Celsius. Such temperatures are high enough to cause very rapid oxidation of depleted uranium.
Boeing has never used DU on either the 757 or the 767, and no longer uses it on the 747
A white flash occurs when a DU penetrator hits a target.
Israel is particularly renown for its production of flywheels.
After more than 50 years producing atomic weapons and nuclear energy, the USA has 500,000 tonnes of depleted uranium stored.
Apart from the USA, countries like the United Kingdom, France, Canada, Russia, Greece, Turkey, Israel, the Gulf monarchies, Taiwan, South Korea, Pakistan or Japan purchase or manufacture weapons with depleted uranium.
DU shells and bullets were used during the Gulf Wars.
The Bush family left around 300 tonnes of Uranium scattered around regions of Iraq.
The DU would be on board of older type of american aircraft.
I am afraid only older airline staff are aware of these hazards. I started my training with 747 in 1970. In 1974, I had an intensive training on "dangerous goods' which also included the danger aspect of the 747, later I was trained on the DC10, (as a station manager and regional manager) I did the migration from 707 to DC10 on Eastafrican Sabena network in the early 89's.
The DU would be on board of older type of american aircraft.
Here is a "Federal Aviation Administration Circular"
AC 20-123
Avoiding or Minimizing Encounters with Aircraft Equipped with Depleted Uranium Balance Weights During Accident Investigations. DATE: Dec 20, 1984
For many years, aircraft manufacturers have used "depleted" uranium to balance ailerons, rudders, and elevators on certain jet aircraft and rotor blades on certain helicopters. Uranium is 1 1/2 times as dense as lead and is the heaviest naturally occurring metal.
According to a 1983 McDonnell Douglas Customer Service First Quarter publication, only "depleted" uranium is used, which means it has been processed to remove most of its uranium 235, the most highly radioactive form used in nuclear powerplants. The remaining uranium 238 emits only low-level alpha radiation.
While the depleted uranium normally poses no danger, it is to be handled with caution. 8O The main hazard associated with depleted uranium is the harmful effect the material could have if it enters the body. If particles are inhaled or digested, they can be chemically toxic and cause a significant and long lasting irradiation of internal tissue. Depleted uranium is slightly radioactive. To minimize radiation hazards, depleted uranium balance weights are 100 percent cadmium plated during the manufacturing process. If the cadmium plating is intact, normal handling of the parts is considered to be non-hazardous and no special precautions are recommended. The use of radioactive materials in many every day applications is not at all unusual. For example, tritium, a radioactive form of hydrogen, is used in self-luminous signs, such as exit signs, and watches. Thorium, which has a radiation activity level comparable to depleted uranium, is used in making gas mantels for lanterns, electronic equipment, and high quality optical lenses for cameras and overhead projectors. Also, smoke detectors contain americium 241, a radioactive material.
PRECAUTIONS.
a. Avoid contact with balance weights using depleted uranium. On arrival at accident scenes of aircraft suspected of containing balance weights made of depleted uranium, determine if balance weights have been damaged or lost their cadmium plating coating. Request specialized assistance if balance weights have been damaged or lost their cadmium plating. No penetration of the plating is allowed.
b. Avoid breathing or swallowing particles of balance weights found damaged or with cadmium plating damaged or lost.
c. If it becomes necessary to handle balance weights, the following precautions should be observed:
(1) Personnel handling the balance weight should wear gloves.
(2) Industrial eye protection should be worn.
(3) Respirator mask should be worn to ensure no radioactive dust particle ingestion.
d. Gloves, wrapping material, wiping cloths, respirator filters, or any other articles used in the handling of damaged balance weights should be discarded and appropriately labeled as radioactive waste and disposed of
accordingly.
The DU would be on board of older type of american aircraft.
Here is a "Federal Aviation Administration Circular"
AC 20-123
Avoiding or Minimizing Encounters with Aircraft Equipped with Depleted Uranium Balance Weights During Accident Investigations. DATE: Dec 20, 1984
For many years, aircraft manufacturers have used "depleted" uranium to balance ailerons, rudders, and elevators on certain jet aircraft and rotor blades on certain helicopters. Uranium is 1 1/2 times as dense as lead and is the heaviest naturally occurring metal.
According to a 1983 McDonnell Douglas Customer Service First Quarter publication, only "depleted" uranium is used, which means it has been processed to remove most of its uranium 235, the most highly radioactive form used in nuclear powerplants. The remaining uranium 238 emits only low-level alpha radiation.
While the depleted uranium normally poses no danger, it is to be handled with caution. 8O The main hazard associated with depleted uranium is the harmful effect the material could have if it enters the body. If particles are inhaled or digested, they can be chemically toxic and cause a significant and long lasting irradiation of internal tissue. Depleted uranium is slightly radioactive. To minimize radiation hazards, depleted uranium balance weights are 100 percent cadmium plated during the manufacturing process. If the cadmium plating is intact, normal handling of the parts is considered to be non-hazardous and no special precautions are recommended. The use of radioactive materials in many every day applications is not at all unusual. For example, tritium, a radioactive form of hydrogen, is used in self-luminous signs, such as exit signs, and watches. Thorium, which has a radiation activity level comparable to depleted uranium, is used in making gas mantels for lanterns, electronic equipment, and high quality optical lenses for cameras and overhead projectors. Also, smoke detectors contain americium 241, a radioactive material.
PRECAUTIONS.
a. Avoid contact with balance weights using depleted uranium. On arrival at accident scenes of aircraft suspected of containing balance weights made of depleted uranium, determine if balance weights have been damaged or lost their cadmium plating coating. Request specialized assistance if balance weights have been damaged or lost their cadmium plating. No penetration of the plating is allowed.
b. Avoid breathing or swallowing particles of balance weights found damaged or with cadmium plating damaged or lost.
c. If it becomes necessary to handle balance weights, the following precautions should be observed:
(1) Personnel handling the balance weight should wear gloves.
(2) Industrial eye protection should be worn.
(3) Respirator mask should be worn to ensure no radioactive dust particle ingestion.
d. Gloves, wrapping material, wiping cloths, respirator filters, or any other articles used in the handling of damaged balance weights should be discarded and appropriately labeled as radioactive waste and disposed of
accordingly.
a total weight of 350,846 kilograms
Investigators have removed from the wreckage site for futher investigation the four engines from the B747.
"There are certain things that they'll be able to tell," John Cottreau, a spokesman for the Transportation Safety Board of Canada, said yesterday.
"They'll be able to tell, within a range, how much power they were producing, that type of thing."
The plane struggled to become airborne at a total weight of 350,846 kilograms.
"There are certain things that they'll be able to tell," John Cottreau, a spokesman for the Transportation Safety Board of Canada, said yesterday.
"They'll be able to tell, within a range, how much power they were producing, that type of thing."
The plane struggled to become airborne at a total weight of 350,846 kilograms.
Re: Halifax 747 Crash+"Strange things may happen in Can
SN30952 wrote:bits44 wrote:One should be extremely careful about concluding what may or may not have caused this crash, especially when the investigators have clearly stated, that no one factor can be blamed for this accident.
Affirmative, bits44. This was not concluding, but reporting. And I also mentioned: rumour, and did not publish it as I said: I had the news Saturday, as it was coming from Canada, it was there still Friday., before I had a second source mentioning overloading. Furthermore I did not mention "10 Tons", as this wasn't confirmed. And was it metric Tons, the source was not specific.
Lets leave the conclusions to the investigators. The rumours to the tabloids.
But when Canadians mixed up gallons and kilos, that aircraft was short of fuel, remember. Strange things may happen in Canada, indeed, as in other countries. We don't turn a blind eye on that, either.
Really that last statement re. Canadians; that's total nonsense!!!, first of all that incident was one of a kind and some 30 years ago when at the same time, the country was switching from the imperial to the metric system
Re: Halifax 747 Crash+"Strange things may happen in Can
It seems I have to correct that Yachtie:SN30952 wrote:This time it was seven lives, + DU exposed rescue workers, a lot of trouble and costs for years & years and that is not nonsense.
Fowler said the depleted uranium was only used as ballast in the rudder and elevator portion of the cargo jet's tail - which were not part of the inferno of the main debris site.
Investigators have determined that no radioactivity was released from depleted uranium (DU) used as ballast in the tail of a Boeing 747 cargo - a 747 may hold as much as 1,500 kilograms of the material.
The protective metal coating around the depleted uranium remained intact during the Oct. 14 crash and fire, as the tail broke off after hitting an earth mound 300 metres beyond the end of the runway during the crash.
Last edited by SN30952 on 30 Oct 2004, 06:26, edited 1 time in total.
All four
Is this cynic, regi.? 8Oregi wrote:well, sn30952, at least this cargo 747 still had its 4 engines.
Or did I miss something.
Indeed it had all four. If it had only 3 it would never have left the Halifax apron, and it would not have crashed that night.
It crashed with four engines, and that is very, very regrettble.
Re: Too slow
This is my first post here, so I hope you won't shoot me for this 8O , but I think there has been a small mix up: the payload figure given by FowlerSN30952 wrote: The plane was loaded with lawn tractors, computer gear and 53,000 kilograms of seafood when it tried to leave Halifax for a flight for Spain. A 747 has a payload capacity of about 60,000 kilograms.
would seem like a pretty wrong number in this case: as far as I know, a 747 has an average payload of 100,000 kgs.
Depending on the type of course (this was a -200SF, full freighter, if I'm not mistaken) and depending on any other restrictions: weather, runway... The 60.000 given by Fowler would rather fit a 747 combi or pax.
Otherwise, with the 53tons of seafood, they would have quickly reached their max payload.
Rgds,
Joeri