MK Airlines 747 crashes Halifax , Canada

[L-1011]

http://novascotia.cbc.ca/regional/servl ... ns20041016

Some new light is shed on this disaster regarding engines.
and the very sad news that all the remains of the crew members have been recovered
A very sad day for all aviators and air transport workers worldwide

A very sad day indeed. My thoughts are with the relatives of the crew. My deepest condolences to them.

Thank you for your detailed report yhzbuzz, and welcome to luchtzak.

ciao,
TriStar

[SN30952]

Bodies recovered from Halifax crash site
Some new light is shed on this disaster regarding engines.

Witnesses say the Ghanaian-registered Boeing-747-200's tail scraped the ground twice before tearing away and sending the aircraft -- believed moving at nearly 200 mph -- crashing into a mound and then a forest where all seven crew members died.

Witnesses?!?, our new member seems only to hear about the vrash, when he goes to YHZ airport about 07:00 AM and he says it is still dark. What's the value of these witness reports, I wonder.
No doubt yhzbuzz' personal report is trustful. But some reporters just put words in the mounth of so-called witnesses.

"The indication is there was prolonged contact of the aft fuselage with the runway and off the end of the runway," said Bill Fowler, investigator with the Transportation Safety Board. "The main part of the fuselage continued ballistically until the final impact point."
Seems a reliable quote.

Now this:
Why the engines had been replaced or where that work had been done. Seems a very important question.
The 747 had a major maintenance inspection in Jakarta, Indonesia, in September.
Since the inspection, two engines had been changed. In Ostend?

And 747 crews are expected to factor in the possibility of one engine failing.

[JohnA]

SN30952: I tend to favor your preliminary conclusions.

This is a good example of the application of the
Occam's Razor principle.

http://pespmc1.vub.ac.be/OCCAMRAZ.html

[SN30952]

SN30952: I tend to favor your premiminary conclusions.
This is a good example of the application of the Occam's Razor principle.

Rule 1: Never believe a Franciscan monk.
Rule 2: Folow a Jesuit.
We had the opportunity to talk about Occam, the monk, didn't we earlier?
William died in the 14th century, long before aviation. I cannot remember right away, but it was in a Munich, beer and restaurant, related item we mentioned him?
W. Occam used that rule as long he had not to defend himself.
And I know computer guys like to refer to him, just for that rule that you guys translate as: make it simple....
My first manager with Sabena said: Rien n'est simple*,
"Nothing is simple." and "All is in everything."

Indeed, nothing is that simple, that's what I tried to explain.

Of course in French in these years.

[JohnA]

Is it true that Belgians make the best detectives?

Is this true because, in the Middle Ages, many caravans
traversed the land. A word-of-mouth security system
built up such that, if a crime were committed in an area
on the way north or south, those in the next community
would have a complete description of the suspects before
they arrived?

Wasn't the fictional Poirot based on a real person?

[SKYSERVANT]

It's ALWAYS (99.9999999% MORE THAN ONE THING
WHICH BRINGS US/THEM DOWN .....

[yhzbuzz]

When offering my previous comments on the MK 747 crash I was careful not to speculate and add my suspicions as to why this aircraft had crashed. I was not an eye whitness to this event nor had I implied that I was. Fact #1..I woke to hear the airport was closed to a "transport plane crash" Fact #2...when I got there the airport was still closed. Fact #it was still fairly dark at 7am here and I could barely make out the tail section when I viewed it from the a distance atop the airport fire training area.

As to everything else regarding fuel loads, cargo weights etc..will all be reported factually once the Satety board has released its report. Everyone who knows anything about aviation can specualte any number of senarios for this incident my self included. I did know one of the guys who helped load the lobster and fish onboard this aircraft. He did see the fireball from the crash..I believe him...he has no reason to lie..but it is always interesting to see how stories can change from initial testomonies and when it comes time to inquiries.

They just announced on our 6pm news that one of the black boxes was found..dont know if it was the cvr or data box..investigator did say it was substantially damaged on the outside and there appeared to be some heat damage...

So all that being said...hopefully that clears up any misunderstanding that I was an ewitness to the actual crash...I was not...I just wanted to give a perspective from what I saw when I arrived at work and what I heard from those there...

thxs.....buzz

[SN30952]

...hopefully that clears up any misunderstanding that I was an ewitness to the actual crash...I was not...I just wanted to give a perspective from what I saw when I arrived at work and what I heard from those there...thxs.....buzz

Dear buzz, I understood you well, you' weren't an eywtness.
What I'm saying is that reporters put words in the month of fictitious witnesses, so to make their story look more credible, although they might just copy from other sources. That for the 'witnesses'. I made a difference calling your information a report: No doubt a personal trustful report, remember?
Euh I witnessed the crash of Aeroflot @ the Findel (LUX), and I was surprised how mixed up my report was later. The sequence of what happened seemed not so clear anymore, that what impressed me most I repeated it also most. Now after > 20 years, what I remember most is the noise the crashing plane made, with its midair reverse engines.

Also the witness' observations are contaminated by other witnesses reporting the things they pretend having seen. Its a totally different sitation, when you can look back at it in a few weeks.

[regi]

If this saga continues, we will see Wiloo the Teacher become head of Ostend Airport, banning all engine driven planes and allow only pedal powered gliders.

[SN30952]

MK Airlines Boeing 747 cargo jet airliner crash at Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada claimed the lives of six Zimbabweans and a South African - all crew members. It also widowed a bride of five weeks.

Senior Captain Dave Lamb was married on September 11 at Harare's Wild Geese Lodge, Teviotdale.
His widow, Mrs Joanne "Jo" Lamb (formerly Buckley) is a well-known Harare-based chiropodist.
Captain Lamb was about 40 years old. It was his first marriage.
It is understood Mrs Lamb was on a short holiday in Zambia when news of the tragedy broke.
Her late husband's employers flew her back to Zimbabwe.

Second captain Mike Thorneycroft (about 60) was divorced from Caroline Thorneycroft, a former Zimbabwean public relations consultant, journalist and broadcaster.

Also killed were Steve Hooper, the flight engineer, Pete Lander the first officer and Chris Strydom the loadmaster.

At this time it was not immediately clear in what capacity a sixth Zimbabwean, Gary Keogh, was travelling.
It is believed Keogh might be "dead-legging" back to Africa.
(travelling to join another flight after an extended layover in North America).

The seventh crewmember killed was South African Mario Zahn, the ground engineer.

MK airlines was founded by Zimbabwean born Mike Kruger in 1990, flying mainly Boeing 747 cargo jets mostly registered in Gabon.
Kruger - a former Air Force of Rhodesia helicopter and Canberra pilot is the nephew of legendary Captain Jack Malloch who founded Affretair (now in liquidation) as a sanctions-busting operation during UDI.
Malloch was said to be on first name terms with long-time Gabonese dictator President Omar Bongo and the West African nation bought much Rhodesian beef and tobacco from the rebel Ian Smith government despite United Nations sanctions between 1965 and 1980.
Malloch died in the mysterious crash of a World War II Spitfire jet fighter over Goromonzi in 1982.

[YACHTIE]

Just another clipping from the local newspaper:

Several websites trace the history of 9G-MKJ back 24 years under a series of registrations.

It was delivered to South African Airways on Nov. 6, 1980, and operated out of that country as a passenger plane for 12 years. In November, 1992, it was acquired by Garuda Indonesian Airline, and used as a passenger plane for another two years.

It came back into the hands of South African Airways in 1994 and was converted for cargo use. MK Airlines bought the plane on March 20, 2000.

Last week, an aviation safety expert who asked not to be named said 9G-MKJ was believed to have suffered serious interior damage that month - it's not clear under whose ownership - when unrestrained ballast cargo shifted during takeoff.

Following a major mechanical inspection in Jakarta, Indonesia, last month the jet had two of four engines replaced, a fact Mr. Fowler called "unusual" on Saturday.

For what it's worth,
Based on all the reports and I emphasize that's only in my own humble opinion it appears that most likely the plane took aff at the short end of the runway and then having been left with not enought take off room or load shift or a combo of these two.

[bits44]

http://novascotia.cbc.ca/regionalnews/c ... 41019.html

[SN30952]

Quoting CBC :The cockpit voice recorder from the cargo jet that crashed last week at the Halifax airport has been found, but it's too damaged to provide any clues.

The investigation now appears to be focusing on two scenarios.

The first suggests there was a problem with one of the engines, and a possible loss of thrust on takeoff. The engines will be removed from the crash site and analysed at a lab.

The other problem could be with the cargo, which was loaded in Connecticut and Halifax. One possibility is that the computer gear, tractors and seafood shifted during takeoff.

Remember what I posted here on Thu Oct 14, 2004 11:14 pm
...... it looks like a misfired take-off.
But winds in the canadian fall season, I suppose, can not be the reason alone of this mishap. Six crew on board? CPT, F/O, F/E, load master and who else?
Does the LM data maybe have something to do with the tailstrike?
If so we will know more when the cabine voice recordings will be analyzed, but this is my clue to the crash.
(LM data = Loadmaster's data)
That's what I said theevening of the disaster. And I did not copy that elsewhere, as I was the first to conclude to that.

So I am still wondering if the LM data made the captain conclude he did not need the full lenght of runway? If that would have been the case, I'm sure the captain will have shouted that loud in cockpit.... Idem if the cargo was shifting....
We will never know, if he said, now the CVR is found to be useless.

[Robair64]

Recently became a member of this forum due to the horrible accident with the MK 747.
Although I'm not an aviator myself or have any flying experience (but working in the air cargo business) , I had the pleasure being a pax on board the MK flights, also on one occasion with the Capt who was flying the plane out of Halifax. I can only advise that the MK people met are all dedicated and experienced airmen.
Probably all of you heard that the voice recorder became unusable due to the fire.
I wonder why in this modern day and age they still have to use tape for the date recorder (which got cut btw but they are fixing it).
One could expect that with an aircraft accident a fire most likely can occur. Can't they manufacture the data recorder is a more fire proof material? The voice recorder would have probably been the key to find the cause of the accident, but cannot be used anymore for the above reason. What about the conversations with the tower, don't they keep a recording?
As explained I'm not an aviator but the more experienced people on this forum or pilots could explain this.
It's a thought which crossed my mind, as issues like this may seem a routine but in cases like this it can mean a world of difference.
We will neither get the crew not the aircraft back with it, but it can give the investigators, MK, the relatives and the people involved a better idea what happened exactly in those tragic last moments.

[bits44]

This site will provide information on all types of recorders and their capabilities, it is an interesting read for all those interested in aviation safety whether you are a pilot or not.

http://aviation-safety.net/cvr/transcripts.shtml

[TCAS_climb]

Robair64,


Here are the regulatory requirements before a FDR or CVR can be installed in a commercial airplane:

Flight Data Recorder
Time recorded: 25 hour continuous
Number of parameters: between 18 and more than 1000
Impact tolerance: 3400 Gs / 6.5 ms
Fire resistance: 1100 deg. Celsius / 30 min
Water pressure resistance: submerged 20,000 ft
Underwater locator beacon: 37.5 KHz; battery has shelf life of 6 years or more, with 30-day operation capability upon activation.

Cockpit Voice Recorder
Time recorded: 30 min continuous, 2 hours for solid state digital units
Number of channels: 4
Impact tolerance: 3400 Gs / 6.5 ms
Fire resistance: 1100 deg. Celsius / 30 min
Water pressure resistance: submerged 20,000 ft
Underwater locator beacon : 37.5 KHz; battery has shelf life of 6 years or more, with 30-day operation capability upon activation.

Notice that the time-limited items are rather short. I can't remember exactly how many dozens of tons of fuel were onboard the MK 747, but I doubt the firefighters were able to finish their job in less than 30 minutes.

According to the latest news I heard, the bits and pieces of the severely damaged FDR can be used to extract some (if not all) data recorded, but the CVR is useless.

Conversations with the tower were most probably recorded by the tower, but they rarely bring any important information to the investigators. Some accidents happen so quickly the pilots don't even have the time to think about calling for help.

[Robair64]

TCAS_climb & Bit 44, very interesting to learn more about the the FDR & CVR.
Thanks for the feedback.

[Robair64]

Perhaps old news but check out the following aviation site and forum

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread ... ost1571360

[ozman]

I am new here (what a wonderful discovery). I have a long time interest in aviation although limted technical knowledge.

I like the witness testimony (he seemed to understand the situtation well), stating that the 747 started rolling from the 2000 ft mark.

How short a take off can a fully laden (I think they said 100 tonnes of seafood and lawn mowers and 200000?? kgs of fuel) take off?

Cheers.

[bits44]

Here's an interesting and very informative site to explore all your aviation questions, you'll see there's a lot more to taking off a runway than just the length.
Have Fun
KT
http://www.aerospaceweb.org/question/pe ... 0088.shtml

Also if you are really into flying this site is for commercial pilots, pay particular attention to the operations button, everything you ever wanted to know about being a pilot, and flying the big iron, you will find here.
http://www.smartcockpit.com/