Brussels-Phuket with BelgiumExcel

[etihad]

OrientThai? The OX-fleet is, let me say it softly, a little bit decayed. I do not see a western clientele queueing to go on board of these aircraft. OX is 'shipping' a chinese clientele, at very low price, but can OX convince westerners to fly with them, when competition offers modern aircraft for just a little more Euros?
China Airline? Why would they come to EBBR? BRU is ok for cargo. Why dilute its passenger' s market position in AMS? CI could eventually envisage to fly to EBBR if Belgium grants it traffic rights, lets say to Canada or US. Taiwan is politcally close to US, so that could be a GO from that side. If BIAC wants to survive, it has to attract these traffic. Because about intra-Europe traffic [rights] everything is said. (BTW Why do you think the Dutch were interested in BIAC? Yes, to control this interconti traffic and bridle it, if need be.)
omerta project? this word tells you more about the content, then I can say.

Fons, thanks for your quick reply.

Let me elaborate a few of these rumours.

Orient Thai has indeed a rather old fleet with an average fleet age of more than 26 years.
Nevertheless , the European operations of OX would be operated by their latest fleet addition, a B747-312, who is 19 years old and in relatively good shape.

I am quite sure OX had already signed an agreement to fly to Stockholm once a week, on behalf of a company named Eastjet.

The plan was to fly Brussels-Stockholm-Bangkok once a week.

Today I found out that this plan was dropped, in favour of the once a week joint-venture project of the Thomas Cook group & Best Tours to Phuket.

So far for Orient Thai.

China Airlines is another story.
China Airlines could well steal the lucrative Best Tours contract from Thai Airways, as Best Tours is getting a bit tired of the steep TG fares.

Best Tours is already an important partner on the weekly Phuket route, so I guess you won’t be seeing much Best Tours pax anymore on the TG 920/921 flights to HKT via FRA and BKK.

If China Airlines could sell around 300 blockspace seats a week on the Brussels market, on top of the sales via the regular commercial channels, then a twice a week non-stop link between BRU & BKK would certainly be justified.

Besides, Amsterdam would not have to suffer as the routing would be AMS - BRU - BKK - TPE - BKK - BRU - AMS.

But again, this depends on the decision of Best Tours and a few other tour-operators who are involved.
Hence, this link wouldn’t only generate pax sales for CI, but also cargo sales - that they can steal from competitor Eva Airways - and who knows maybe even a partnership with SN Brussels Airlines, who is looking for an Asian partner anyway.

But at the moment, it is just a rumour.

*Edit: Omerta info deleted upon request

[SN30952]

I guess you won't be seeing much Best Tours pax anymore on the TG 920/921 flights to HKT via FRA and BKK.

If China Airlines could sell around 300 blockspace seats a week on the Brussels market
CI a partnership with SN Brussels Airlines, who is looking for an Asian partner anyway.
Today I heard another reporter say that all flights would be operated via DXB with new A319s.
The people behind the project are rumoured to have secured 5th freedom rights between Belgium, the UAE, Thailand, the PR of China and India.

What's even more intriguing is that I got an anonymous email today of someone who urged me to delete what I wrote about this omerta project, and to never mention it again???
How did this individual get my email address?
Am I getting to close or what is going on?

TG 920/921? There is more in the air... Tell them, Dave.
CI, 'one or the' asian partner of SNBA? If they choose CI they close the door in China...
300 blockspace seats weekly? No operator can produce this on Thailand in Belgium 300x52 = 15600! Anyone who can guarantee that, I can provide the tractor to carry that!

A319, that is an excellent idea! How many seats? >124?
An A319 version can do 6850km, BRU-DXB = 5153.
The nearest airport in Thailand from DXB in Grand Circle distance is CNX: DXB-CNX = 4539 and from there to China is about two hours flighttime. The second shortest is BKK: DXB-BKK = 4885. DXB-HKT = 4930.
But did you have any idea of this:
BRU-CNX =8717 non stop
BRU-BKK =9243
BRU-PEK =7967
Two different round trips to Thailand: BRU-CNX or BRU-BKK make 1052km more. In one year this adds up to 54704km, that's about 70 flying hours, or six-seven flights BRU-CNX!

[liebensd]

A source told me that in the near future Thai Airways will fly back to Brussels. Sn Brussels Airlines will code share on the Bankok Brussels route.


Greetz,

Dave

[Avro]

A source told me that in the near future Thai Airways will fly back to Brussels. Sn Brussels Airlines will code share on the Bankok Brussels route.

Is it a reliable source ? Because this rumour is allready going around for some time now

But it would be great

Chris

[liebensd]

I think the source is reliable.


Greetz,

Dave

[bigjulie]

I believe that travel agents don't give you all the available options, they just give the options they want to give to you, I suppose it depends on their affiliations with different airlines .

[Stoney]

I hope some of the rumours in this thread become true one day... Brussels really need to be connected to Asia again, transferring in AMS, FRA or LHR can really be a pain IMO...

[OrientThai]

I've heard another rumour; that BIAC is in negotiation with Hainan Airlines to open a new route between BRU and PEK.
Anyone have more news about this?

[OrientThai]

I think a twice weekly service between BRU and PEK could easily work, because this would be the first destination for HNA in western Europe (after BUD).

Secondly China has now one of the most properous economy. More and more Chinese people can afford to travel abroad, (in 2020 more than 100 millions Chineses are going to travel abroad). So this is one of the biggest and fastest growing market in the world for the aviation industry.

BRU has a very good infrastructure with modern terminal, good connection through Europe, and with good expansion capacity.
For example it's takes only 1h from BRU to the center of Paris (with the Thalys), 2h 30min to the center of London with the Eurostar.

SNBA can codeshare with HNA on the BRU-PEK route (this would the first asian gateway for SNBA), and HNA can codeshare on some of the european routes of SNBA, (like Italy which is popular with the Chinese tourist, or to Paris with the Thalys coming directly into the airport).
So each other will bring passengers on their routes.
Let's hope BIAC will convice HNA to come to BRU.

[sn26567]

How did this individual get my email address?

etihad,

It is well possible that you get an e-mail without the sender knowing your e-mail address. Under each of your posts in Luchtzak, there is a button that says "email". If someone pushes that button, he can send an email that is rerouted to you (the address that you gave when registering at Luchtzak and that is NOT publicly available) through the Luchtzak server, without anybody in the chain being aware of your real email address.

[etihad]

TG 920/921? There is more in the air... Tell them, Dave.
CI, 'one or the' asian partner of SNBA? If they choose CI they close the door in China...
300 blockspace seats weekly? No operator can produce this on Thailand in Belgium 300x52 = 15600! Anyone who can guarantee that, I can provide the tractor to carry that!

A319, that is an excellent idea! How many seats? >124?

I will elaborate.

TG 920/921? There is more in the air... Tell them, Dave.

If you are referring to the rumoured SN/TG code-share, then I must disappoint you, as this rumour is false.
It was probably spread by the Thai press, who is not exactly known for its reliability.

CI, 'one or the' asian partner of SNBA? If they choose CI they close the door in China...

Ever heard of Hainan Airlines?

300 blockspace seats weekly? No operator can produce this on Thailand in Belgium 300x52 = 15600! Anyone who can guarantee that, I can provide the tractor to carry that!

300 Blockspace seats not feasible?
First of all, you seem to forget that the Brussels market does not only consist of Belgium.
There are many Dutch pax who travel via Brussels too, not only because Brussels is closer to their homes than Amsterdam, but also because it is cheaper to travel via Brussels.

Besides that, CI offers almost 150.000 seats per year on the Dutch market.
You would be surprised to see how many Belgians travel with CI, especially because they offer very competitive fares year-round.

No less than 90% of the Thailand market consists of package deals (flight+hotel), and almost all of them rely on blockspace seats.
China Airlines is the no1 carrier in the Benelux for travel to Bangkok, regardless the direct competition of KLM and Eva Air, and the indirect competition of many others.

The plan is that Best tours would be granted 300 blockspace seats for the Belgian & Dutch market.
As I already mentioned the routing would be AMS-BRU-BKK-TPE-BKK-BRU-AMS, twice a week.
CI can also adjust the capacity easily, as they can switch a/c from B744 to A343 when needed.
If there is indeed an overcapacity in blockspace seats, Best tours can always sell capacity to other tour-operators or travel agencies.
Like this, everybody is happy, and everybody gets good fares.

You better run some engine tests on that tractor of yours ...

*Edit: Omerta info deleted upon request

[OrientThai]

I think TG won't come to BRU in the near future , but maybe in 2005 or 2006 when they will receive their new A340/500 & A340/600 .

[SN30952]

If you are referring to the rumoured SN/TG code-share, then I must disappoint you, as this rumour is false.
It was probably spread by the Thai press, who is not exactly known for its reliability..

Wrong, we have it from the ondernemingsraad.

Ever heard of Hainan Airlines?

That is Chinese, not all airlines that carry 'China' in their logo are 'chinese'. CI is Taiwanese.
And for the CIA this country does not even seem to exsist! See http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/fac ... os/ch.html

300 Blockspace seats not feasible? First of all, you seem to forget that the Brussels market does not only consist of Belgium....Besides that, CI offers almost 150.000 seats per year on the Dutch market. The plan is that Best tours would be granted 300 blockspace seats for the Belgian & Dutch market. CI can also adjust the capacity easily, as they can switch a/c from B744 to A343 when needed.

If I read you well, this would not be a new traffic, but a move. An airline would modify its ops, increase its costs, just to please a tour operator?

This would mean CI would probably not catch more traffic... but certainly catch more costs.... Now this is something every airline tries to avoid.
Increased cost with equal revenue means loss. The CI regional manager who proposes such a plan to his headoffice, is making an end to his carreer.

If there is indeed an overcapacity in blockspace seats, Best tours can always sell capacity to other tour-operators or travel agencies.
Like this, everybody is happy, and everybody gets good fares.

There is no overcapacity, there is no new creation of traffic, you are pouring old existing traffics in new projects.

You better run some engine tests on that tractor of yours ...
A319, that is an excellent idea! How many seats? >124?

Funny, funny, you're a joker, Ethihad. I still say this is an excellent idea.
But I do not see any figures coming from your part. An interconti jet with 48 seats? If you're planning to carry only 48 pax, you could as well install beds!!!

Serious now:
The whole of Europe represents less than a quarter of the incoming traffic in Thailand. And all the Belgians coming to Thailand represent just over 0.50%. To be exact in the last good years that was 0.53% in 2001, 0.52% in 2002. We know 2003 was a bad year, with Sars, Iraq... so let's not waste more time on that.
How many Belgians, meaning how many entries of Belgians, (one Belgian can have more entries, not necesarly coming from Belgium*) were there? The border police checks these entries.
For 2001 they counted 53.813 and for 2002 56.865 belgian entries. 2003 was less. And figures seem not to evolve so positively as they expected, because TAT is not longer publishing stats.
In the same periods the Dutch people entering Thailand were 142.560 in 2001 and 150.138 the year later.

Do you have any idea how many Taiwanese entered Thailand in the same period?
738.642 in 2001 and 674.366 in 2002 and again in 2003 that figure dropped.

The biggest European market is UK (>700.000 entries) followed by Germany (>400.000) The smallest market is Spain (<50.000), second lowest is Austria (juist over 50.000 and lower than Belgium, which is the third smallest european market even including Lux!). All the EU countries produce 2.650.000 entries yearly. This proves well that Belgium is a small market, precisely because of that one tour operator. The Netherlands have a more diversified tour operator offer. The Scandinavian markets has a multitude of tour operators on Thailand.
No carrier in the world will put all his 'legendary eggs in one basket'.
And I'm still wondering why people make such a fuss about such a small market. If an airline wants to increase its traffic, it will not turn to the third smallest market but to the biggest markets to get its share of the business.
The biggest markets are UK, Germany and Scandinavia (>700.000: >400.000 and >450.000 entries on year basis)
Unless it is for traffic rights beyond BRU, there is no reason to come to BRU for Asian airlines.

*A Belgian tourist on tour can fly in from SIN (1entry), continue to Cambodia and go back to BKK (second entry), fly to HKG and come back (third entry, I concede they not all fly around like this). An other thing to take into account is this: the visa run. Many Belgians stay in Thailand based on a tourist visum. This means they have to leave the country every 30days, making for his person upto 12 yearly entries.

[etihad]

Wrong, we have it from the ondernemingsraad.

Which board meeting, TG or SN?

If you got it from the latest SN Brussels board meeting, then I can not guarantee you that I won’t start laughing out loud.

That is Chinese, not all airlines that carry 'China' in their logo are 'chinese'. CI is Taiwanese.

You misinterpreted me.

Hainan Airlines is planning a link between Brussels and Beijing.
If SN puts their code on the Hainan flights (which is very likely), they get a direct link with Beijing, and Hainan can provide the much wanted intra-Chinese traffic.

China Airlines is not needed in this scenario.

If I read you well, this would not be a new traffic, but a move. An airline would modify its ops, increase its costs, just to please a tour operator?

This is indeed part of the possible deal.
Or do you think that a business deal only comes one way?
If China Airlines wants the big contract, then they have to make an effort.
Otherwise, Best tours might as well pick another partner.

This would mean CI would probably not catch more traffic... but certainly catch more costs.... Now this is something every airline tries to avoid.
Increased cost with equal revenue means loss. The CI regional manager who proposes such a plan to his headoffice, is making an end to his carreer.

So China Airlines is no option if I read you well, but Thai Airways is?
What’s the difference?
They are both heading for BKK, no?
Only CI does it cheaper, much cheaper ...

There is no overcapacity, there is no new creation of traffic, you are pouring old existing traffics in new projects.

That’s the art, isn’t it?
Finding alternatives and new projects, without changing much.

The smallest market is Spain (<50.000), second lowest is Austria (juist over 50.000 and lower than Belgium, which is the third smallest european market even including Lux!).

And I'm still wondering why people make such a fuss about such a small market. If an airline wants to increase its traffic, it will not turn to the third smallest market but to the biggest markets to get its share of the business.

I do not agree.
On the big markets there is already plenty of capacity and competition, so why add more?
In Belgium, there is no competition and there surely is demand, just ask around!
You claim that Spain and Austria have even fewer pax to Thailand as Belgium, but the countries mentioned do have a link with Bangkok and beyond.
Given the fact that Austria (Vienna) is a rather small market, it even provides one of the best Asian networks in Europe.

Unless it is for traffic rights beyond BRU, there is no reason to come to BRU for Asian airlines.

I do not understand your argumentation.
You doubt that CI would start Brussels operations, but at the same time you claim that TG will?
Who is going to fill those TG a/c?
SN Brussels Airlines? - laughing out loud now, I almost made it without laughing though -
SN Brussels can’t even fill their own little Avro’s.
And how do the Brussels operations of TG fit the Star Alliance strategy?

It makes no sense, no sense at all.

*Edit: Omerta info deleted upon request

[SN30952]

It makes no sense, no sense at all.

I fully agree with you, 'over all the line".

[Stoney]

Guys, i'm not going to interfere in most of this discussion as it's beyond my league anyway...

But I have one remark, about the Hainan Airlines rumour... Is this really true? Isn't this rumour fed by the fact that there are some birds in Hainan Airlines colourscheme in BRU right now?
I am in Hainan Island now, and talked to some people about this rumour (people not working in the industry though) and all they could do was laugh with me... Everybody here told me that is very very unlikely...

[SN30952]

I talked to some people about this rumour Hainan Airlines rumour (people not working in the industry though) and all they could do was laugh with me... Everybody here told me that is very very unlikely...

You talked to some birds in Hainan Airlines, Stoney?
Take care!

http://www.hnair.com/en/default.htm

Hainan island. Some people say ... If you intend to visit this jewel now is the time before it becomes too commercialised.
Where are you on Hainan island, Stoney?
Haikou
Sanya
Tianyahaijiao
Yalong Wang
Xinglong
Luhuitou
Dadonghai

Tell us about it, Stoney.

PS If Hainan Island wants western tourists they will certainly go and find them in Germany and not particularly in Belgium...

Hainan Island, is the famous scenic spot in China for its golden beach, blue sea and the tropical climate. Haikou is the capital city. The second-biggest city is Sanya, with its tropical attractions.
Sanya had been a poor little fishing village until 1988 when the government designate it as the Hainan Special Economic Zone. Now there are many fine hotels and golf courses.
Travellers to the island should make sure their health insurance is up to date as medical expenses can be very expensive*.

*So that's not an incentive to go there, unless you can afford a heavy insurance fee, of course.

[sn26567]

Wrong, we have it from the ondernemingsraad.

Which board meeting, TG or SN?

Etihad, "ondernemingsraad" (or "conseil d'entreprise" in French) is not the Board, but the staff council. By law in Belgium, management is obliged to give the staff some economic information on the company on a regular basis.

But I am also interested in the answer to your question: TG or SN?

[SN30952]

"ondernemingsraad" (or "conseil d'entreprise" in French) is not the Board, but the staff council. By law in Belgium, management is obliged to give the staff some economic information on the company on a regular basis.
But I am also interested in the answer to your question: TG or SN?

There is no ondernemingsraad nor conseil d'entreprise in Thailand.

PS The answer was given already, sawasdee

[waldova]

I would never book a flight on the website of the airline, in all my experiences this is always the most expensive...

I have the same experience as you Stoney! When you look at search engines on the sites of the airline company itselfe you mostly get ridicoulous high prices! I looked for some friends of me for a ticket to Rio De Janeiro in August. On the Air France site I got a price of 2500 EURO each wich is ridicoulus. I went then to the Air France counter at the airport itself and got fo r the same days and hours a price of about 870 EURO. But I geuss that still some people buy these tickets at the really high fare of 2500 euro.
I have seen this a lot also with other companies.
What works better is connections and airstop.