Lufthansa in 2025

[sn26567]

Lufthansa in 2017
Lufthansa in 2018
Lufthansa in 2019
Lufthansa in 2020
Lufthansa in 2021
Lufthansa in 2022
Lufthansa in 2023
Lufthansa in 2024

[Atlantis]

Lufthansa will announce, probably on Monday, that it will lay off thousands of employees.
Merely this will be in the administrative departments of all brands. The plan is to cut 1/5 of all admin employees in the next years

[Established02]

Lufthansa will announce, probably on Monday, that it will lay off thousands of employees.
Merely this will be in the administrative departments of all brands. The plan is to cut 1/5 of all admin employees in the next years

Curious to know how much AI is being a driver in this.

[Atlantis]

Lufthansa will announce, probably on Monday, that it will lay off thousands of employees.
Merely this will be in the administrative departments of all brands. The plan is to cut 1/5 of all admin employees in the next years

Curious to know how much AI is being a driver in this.

Exactly. It's not a secret that repetitive tasks they wanted to let it do by AI.

[oldblueeyes]

There are obviously some other reasons as well.

LH wants to centralize some functions done previously independently by each brand, thus some synergies / redundancies would result from there as well.

One thing that appeared in an Aviation Week article is that LH would look towards optimizing transfer pax on shorthaul routes across its hubs. Looks to me that also intra European routing would become more centralized.

[Atlantis]

There are obviously some other reasons as well.

LH wants to centralize some functions done previously independently by each brand, thus some synergies / redundancies would result from there as well.

One thing that appeared in an Aviation Week article is that LH would look towards optimizing transfer pax on shorthaul routes across its hubs. Looks to me that also intra European routing would become more centralized.

Correct, as from the end of 2026. They want to get rid of parallel flights, overlapping and over capacity on certain routes.
With this, they would like to freed up double digit number of aircraft.
This of course will be centralized in Germany.

It will be nervous coming years.

[oldblueeyes]

Not sure if all planning functions would go to Germany. I assume that some functions would be centralized outside, for cost and political reasons vs local goverments.
But it' s clear that the Networks Airlines are supposed to be managed tighter and not as a conglomerate.

[JOVAN2]

Lufthansa and KLM-AF bosses complain together, in French and German biz-newspaper about competition they het from ME sirlines.

They are partly right, but extremely.late to complain.

They change strategies and policies quite often and on top now they suffer from Ukraine crisis.
Long before that crisis i have for myself already.decided 7 or 8 years ago to fly to Asia via Doha or Dubai.
Finito the long walks in FRA or AMS from one terminal to another and waiti.ng in looong queues for unefficient controllers.
And paying huge airport taxes in FRA and AMS.

For Asia and ME, its already excluded to fly Teutonic or Batavian airlines.
Time for reality check for CS and overpaid Smith

[lumumba]

Lufthansa and KLM-AF bosses complain together, in French and German biz-newspaper about competition they het from ME sirlines.

They are partly right, but extremely.late to complain.

They change strategies and policies quite often and on top now they suffer from Ukraine crisis.
Long before that crisis i have for myself already.decided 7 or 8 years ago to fly to Asia via Doha or Dubai.
Finito the long walks in FRA or AMS from one terminal to another and waiti.ng in looong queues for unefficient controllers.
And paying huge airport taxes in FRA and AMS.

For Asia and ME, its already excluded to fly Teutonic or Batavian airlines.
Time for reality check for CS and overpaid Smith

I don't know the airport prices, but I'd much rather go through Frankfurt than Dubai or Doha. Frankfurt is a very convenient airport.
I don't understand what you mean?!
Can you clarify what you dislike about Frankfurt ?

I think the problem here is that the companies there don't pay taxes, and therefore have a fiscal and competitive advantage.
That's not fair they are right even aviation should be taxed more so the train could compete with air travel!

[rwandan-flyer]

Lufthansa and KLM-AF bosses complain together, in French and German biz-newspaper about competition they het from ME sirlines.

They are partly right, but extremely.late to complain.

They change strategies and policies quite often and on top now they suffer from Ukraine crisis.
Long before that crisis i have for myself already.decided 7 or 8 years ago to fly to Asia via Doha or Dubai.
Finito the long walks in FRA or AMS from one terminal to another and waiti.ng in looong queues for unefficient controllers.
And paying huge airport taxes in FRA and AMS.

For Asia and ME, its already excluded to fly Teutonic or Batavian airlines.
Time for reality check for CS and overpaid Smith

I live in France and it's been 20 years that 1st complains started with Middle East Airlines. And many people put pressure on French Gov to block new traffic rights

Air France executives (Spinneta, De Juniac, Janaillac,....), French airlines unions, French MPs all have put pressure on French Gov. Since 2013, no new traffic rights were signed, in 2013 and in 2023 talks were suspended by French Gov.

It started in 2005 with one AF union

Panic on board among Emirates competitors https://www-liberation-fr.translate.goo ... r_pto=wapp

Then in 2010 few months before the signature of the 2011 agreements signed between France and UAE :

Emirates: Why the government abandoned Air France https://snpnc-org.translate.goog/emirat ... r_pto=wapp

Right now negotiations between France and the Emirates are currently blocked (last negotiation took place in 2023). Traffic rights from UAE side has reached it maximum level in 2010s, they have used their last rights. Emirates and Etihad have added more flights to Paris Cdg, Emirates has added flights Lyons (from 5 weekly to daily) and Etihad started few years ago flights to Nice

2013. After bilateral agreements with the French authorities concluded in January 2011, Emirates wants more. Bordeaux, Toulouse and Marseilles were the destination targeted. New negotiations were supposed to start in 2013, but it was suspended by French Gov

Emirates Airlines to suspend new provincial routes until the end of 2013 https://www.tourmag.com/Emirates-Airlin ... 58704.html

2023. New negations (it was supposed to be in 2013) have started but no thing signed since and talks are probably (again) suspended

Emirates, Flydubai, Etihad... the United Arab Emirates airlines are back in action to increase their flights to France. https://www-latribune-fr.translate.goog ... _hist=true

About Qatar is not the same thing, because it's an open sky agreements with UE. So Qatar Airways can serve a country in Europe without restrictions.

Only French Airports are happy to see airlines from Middle East. They bring huge traffic. Qatar Airways has failed at Lyons and Toulouse not about load factor but a low yield. The biggest export market from French province are Thailand, Indonesia, Zanzibar but they are low yield destinations. And import demand is not enough to make profits. Only Nice can have huge capacities with Middle East (served by MEA, Gulf Air, Saudia and Kuwait Airways)

Tukish Airlines is doing good in France (Bordeaux, Marseilles, Lyons, Nice, Toulouse) due to the fleet used (from the B737 to the B777) and the fact that they have huge network in Asia, Africa and a good point to point demand between France and Turkey.

French people don't care about Air France. I even think critics are worse there than some of members of this forum with Brussels Airlines. Many people call Air France "Air Strike". AF always in strike, too expansive, bad service (while some people there say that they have good flights with AF).

If people living in Province have good solution from Province to Africa and Asia with Qatar, Emirates or Turkish, they will avoid Paris.

[oldblueeyes]

Let's try to look at it agnostic.

Countries/economies have business interests. Airlines have interests.

The deal maker arguments for the Middle East airlines were the very large orders for aircraft. And they used this to leverage rights across Europe - let's be honest, Emirates was THE A380 sponsor, and Qatar was until the excess behaviour of the former CEO a very loyal Airbus client.

If we speak about rights, open skies are the exception and with most countries classic share of rights apply. And here we do have the particularity of smaller territories such as the small Middle East countries, where they have to surface airports to offer. Things are not looking other eg in European countries vs India, where India is blocking until they would get a stronger own industry.

So looking from both sides, the European airlines have a disadvantage in getting a similar market access.

Of course, things are looking different from a passenger prospective. The M3 airlines are landing at regional airports with wide bodies, thus offering on the first leg a better flight experience (from meals up to inflight entertainment) and airport proximity. And of course, they have often an atractive price point.

There is nothing to judge in good/bad scale, just to acknowledge that each stakeholer is legitimately looking for its own interest.

[lumumba]

Let's try to look at it agnostic.

Countries/economies have business interests. Airlines have interests.

The deal maker arguments for the Middle East airlines were the very large orders for aircraft. And they used this to leverage rights across Europe - let's be honest, Emirates was THE A380 sponsor, and Qatar was until the excess behaviour of the former CEO a very loyal Airbus client.

If we speak about rights, open skies are the exception and with most countries classic share of rights apply. And here we do have the particularity of smaller territories such as the small Middle East countries, where they have to surface airports to offer. Things are not looking other eg in European countries vs India, where India is blocking until they would get a stronger own industry.

So looking from both sides, the European airlines have a disadvantage in getting a similar market access.

Of course, things are looking different from a passenger prospective. The M3 airlines are landing at regional airports with wide bodies, thus offering on the first leg a better flight experience (from meals up to inflight entertainment) and airport proximity. And of course, they have often an atractive price point.

There is nothing to judge in good/bad scale, just to acknowledge that each stakeholer is legitimately looking for its own interest.

Good explanation but why is it more comfortable to fly wide bodies in my experience for example, I prefer to fly with the 757 than the 787 to Newark.
I also like very much the 737 max from RAM to Africa.

[oldblueeyes]

Let's compare apples with apples.

We speak about flying from a secondry European airport to let's say somewhere in Asia via Doha or Dubai vs AMS or CDG or FRA or MUC.

The first sector to a hub in France, Netherlands, Germany, would be done with a regional or best case mainstream narrowbody, European class seat configuration, best case very litle catering etc.
To the contrary, the first sector to Doha or Dubai is done by the M3 airlines with a widebody with meals, inflight enteraintment etc.
Even Turkish has for longer European flights some narrowbodies with such let's say medium length sector ameninities.

Therefore, even overall the the service may be comparable, the perceived value by the average Joe may be in favor of twice widebody, etc.

Most of us are frequent flyers, know the major airports and can compare products. But for the normal leisure traveller, simply the idea of a stop ovr in Dubai and spending there few hours in a new terminal is cool.

The same would apply if one wants to fly from Asia or the Middle East to the US and European carriers would offer twice a widebody experience vs a short haul + long haul flight.

[lumumba]

Let's compare apples with apples.

We speak about flying from a secondry European airport to let's say somewhere in Asia via Doha or Dubai vs AMS or CDG or FRA or MUC.

The first sector to a hub in France, Netherlands, Germany, would be done with a regional or best case mainstream narrowbody, European class seat configuration, best case very litle catering etc.
To the contrary, the first sector to Doha or Dubai is done by the M3 airlines with a widebody with meals, inflight enteraintment etc.
Even Turkish has for longer European flights some narrowbodies with such let's say medium length sector ameninities.

Therefore, even overall the the service may be comparable, the perceived value by the average Joe may be in favor of twice widebody, etc.

Most of us are frequent flyers, know the major airports and can compare products. But for the normal leisure traveller, simply the idea of a stop ovr in Dubai and spending there few hours in a new terminal is cool.

The same would apply if one wants to fly from Asia or the Middle East to the US and European carriers would offer twice a widebody experience vs a short haul + long haul flight.

Yep I understand you are right in that optic my colleague just flew from Beyrouth to Lisbon in Business (Lufthansa)he said it was really not business class but like we know economy seats and one free,the service was poor and it was an expensive ticket!
He often flies with Emirates.

[oldblueeyes]

This is an issue where the "Europeans" did not got an answer till now, let's be fair on expressing it. And where they have a blind spot, other may have a sweet spot.

The majority of European routes can be covered within 2-2,5 hour flights and the European carriers are using the "all economy" type of seating.

If we look towards the differentiators, these are companies like Turkish, where there is a 2nd seating eg for the A321 with 2-2 "old style" business seats, IFE as well for economy etc. But to be here also very honest, they may have more routes in 3-6 hours where they can have the economics of such a subfleet.

Qatar has a similar product on their A321 NEO as well, and i would expect them to dive deeper with the 321XLR into such offerings.

Interestingwise Eurowings is opening now more its windows towards the Middle East and they will start testing some 2-2 business seats in the A320 NEO. Also under the premise that they can be changed overnight into all-economy. So here something may move on in the future.

And this may open the question where the sweet spot of the A321 XLR may be - not necessarily on thin VFR routes such as Africa, but there where a decent premium portion can be filled consistently. For the LH Group the first evaluations may come 2027, according to a recent interview of the ITA CEO .

[fcw]

This is an issue where the "Europeans" did not got an answer till now, let's be fair on expressing it. And where they have a blind spot, other may have a sweet spot.

The majority of European routes can be covered within 2-2,5 hour flights and the European carriers are using the "all economy" type of seating.

If we look towards the differentiators, these are companies like Turkish, where there is a 2nd seating eg for the A321 with 2-2 "old style" business seats, IFE as well for economy etc. But to be here also very honest, they may have more routes in 3-6 hours where they can have the economics of such a subfleet.

Qatar has a similar product on their A321 NEO as well, and i would expect them to dive deeper with the 321XLR into such offerings.

Interestingwise Eurowings is opening now more its windows towards the Middle East and they will start testing some 2-2 business seats in the A320 NEO. Also under the premise that they can be changed overnight into all-economy. So here something may move on in the future.

And this may open the question where the sweet spot of the A321 XLR may be - not necessarily on thin VFR routes such as Africa, but there where a decent premium portion can be filled consistently. For the LH Group the first evaluations may come 2027, according to a recent interview of the ITA CEO .

QR has flatbeds on their longer 320-routes only the short hops are flown with the 2-2 old style seats.
20 years ago several European airlines had rows in the front which could be transformed from 2 wider J seats into 3 smaller Y in less than 1 minute.

[oldblueeyes]

As a broader picture, it looks like Lufthansa is streamlining its operations as well in the regional jets market and geeting rid of aircraft below the E195 size.

- 2026 starts the phase out of the CRJs as Lufthansa Cityline would be shot down in 2027
- 2028 Air Dolomiti will get rid of their 9x E190 and should get 13xE195 from Austrian; subsequently they will provide wet lease to Austrian as well
- Austrian is getting rid of their 17 E195 and 6 A320 are announced as first step replacement

- meanwhile Swiss is grounding all A221 for 1,5 years due to engine issues (they may use Helvetic as backup, plus some A320NEOs are being reactivated etc)

[oldblueeyes]

According to an article in German Handelsblatt, Lufthansa is mulling over again the A321XLR, as a by product for is non core brands - Austrian, Brussels, Discover.

If so, i would see it asa network opener for the US East coast in BRU and maybe some selected leisure.

[Matt]

According to an article in German Handelsblatt, Lufthansa is mulling over again the A321XLR, as a by product for is non core brands - Austrian, Brussels, Discover.

If so, i would see it asa network opener for the US East coast in BRU and maybe some selected leisure.

https://www.aero.de/news-51120/Lufthans ... l-auf.html

link to article. Could indeed be interesting for SN for potential transatlantic routes. For Africa, this has little to no value to SN (there is almost no cargo space available)

[TimTam]

Could the presence of 7 (?) A321XL at ITA influnce/convince CS & Co. to seriously consider or even to buy such aircraft for other LH Group airlines ?