Lufthansa Group Fleet in 2024

[crew1990]

I just created this topic as sometimes when discussing about fleet move, it is more related to the group than individual airlines.

Regarding this well known website https://sites.google.com/view/europeana ... leets/home

It seems like all A320neo of Cityline will move to Lufthansa; the sole A320neo freshly paint of Lufthansa City will go back as well to Lufthansa while 9 new A320neo with the LEAP engine from the Lufhtansa group order has been allocated to Lufthansa City becoming a new A320neo LEAP engine user. 3 out of 5 A320neo of Austrian will move back to Lufthansa as well replaced by... ??, it become clear that Austrian will be the (one of the) Boeing 737-8 user of the group.

[OO-PDM]

I find it quite puzzling, recently they announced the intent to let VL and 4Y fly more of LH's short haul flights (https://www.aerotelegraph.com/airbus-a3 ... schrumpfen) and now they will take on 11 P&W powered A320neo's whilst only sending 6 ceo's to 4Y and 1 to OS. So either LH will send some of their A320ceo's equipped with WIFI to 4Y (or VL for that matter) OR they plan on using these 11 'new' neo's to replace some of their aging A319 (and hopefully D-AIQS, at 31 years old she has earned her retirement)

[Atlantis]

I just created this topic as sometimes when discussing about fleet move, it is more related to the group than individual airlines.

Regarding this well known website https://sites.google.com/view/europeana ... leets/home

It seems like all A320neo of Cityline will move to Lufthansa; the sole A320neo freshly paint of Lufthansa City will go back as well to Lufthansa while 9 new A320neo with the LEAP engine from the Lufhtansa group order has been allocated to Lufthansa City becoming a new A320neo LEAP engine user. 3 out of 5 A320neo of Austrian will move back to Lufthansa as well replaced by... ??, it become clear that Austrian will be the (one of the) Boeing 737-8 user of the group.

Pity that those A320neo's will not come to SN

[crew1990]

All those A320neo from Austrian, Lufthansa City and Cityline are Pratt & Whitney powered aircraft. Brussels Airlines A320neo have the LEAP engine, and there is still 19 A320neo and 17 A321neo with the LEAP engine from the the Lufhansa Group order to be allocated within Eurowing, Discover, Brussels and City.

[oldblueeyes]

LH mainline will shrink, as it is to expensive for a feeder.

And tha

n you have to see the process in it's complexity:
- Cityline is subject to fall 2027 under scope clause again - means only the CRJ fleet should remain until it's end of life cycle- afterwards under 100 seaters would be sourced only from external providers
- Discover is expanding it's leisure short haul offering, thus more A320 there
- LH itself has a queue of replacements needed - half of it's remaining 319 fleet would be due in the coming 2-3 years, the rest likely to expensive to be flown by mainline crews, the 321 fleet is aging and needs replacement
- on top of this, the long haul fleet is suposed to grow again, meaning a shift of pilots towards long haul and transferring short haul aircraft to other subsidiaries

And it's likely that OS would get the 737 MAX, with the 321 due to replacement, half of the 320 fleet ageing and than logically the 320NEO better off somewhere else.

[DannyVDB]

Hi all,

I saw that the 5 A320neo from OS will be transferred to LH according to https://sites.google.com/view/europeanairlinefleets/aua

I assume this is to (temporary?) solve the issues they still have with 12 (!) of their A320neo and A321neo aircraft. But then, it seems that almost all of those aircraft that are in Long Term Parking mode (LTP) will be reactivated early 2025. Why then still transfer those OS frames?

Or are these going somewhere else afterwards? And how can OS solve 5 A320neo leaving the fleet? Keeping their older A320ceo and A321ceo longer?

So many questions, but no answers from my side

Cheers,
Danny

[DannyVDB]

Forgot my final question: might they go to SN?

[OO-PDM]

No they are equipped with P&W 1100 GTF, SN flies with CFM LEAP

furthermore, I interpreted this TRF to LH on as somewhat of a confirmation that OS would get some of the MAX order. But EAF placed these MAXes all with EWL. As far as I know this is not confirmed but if OS doesn't get the MAX to replace its aging airbuses said transfer of NEO's doesn't make sense. So eiter OS will get the MAX (although this is not on EAF, they could be wrong or LHG could exercise options).

As to your question on wether or not this is to compensate for P&W equipped NEO's that are grounded
If you look on EAF on Lufthansa's page, you can see the German registration of the OS NEO's fils the gaps that the transfer of CL NEO's leaves suspiciously well, this leads me to think these NEO's were planned to have a temporary stay at OS (eg until the MAX arrived). If you look at what this transfer from OS to LH + new NEO's to be delivered in 2025 (and 2026) means in terms of capacity for LH, you would see 20 additional NEO's in real terms (9 new for VL, 6 new for LH + 5 transferred from OS (I didn't count the 5 from CL as they already provide capacity for LH). These 20 planes allow for the retirement of quite a few older A319 and maybe A320, especially when you consider the transfer of LH flights between MUC and FRA and ZRH, GVA and BRU to LX and SN respectively. Eg they could retire the 13 oldest A319's in the mainline fleet, transfer the younger 10 (12-15 YO) to VL + retire the 4 oldest A320 with LH or they could maybe retire the aging A319 of CL. That way the A319 would disappear from the mainline LH fleet which would make sense from a cost perspective.

[oldblueeyes]

These 320 were supposed to be only for a while at Austrian, so no surprise that they would migrate back to Lufthansa. But - nobody says when thsi would happen.
From the logic of the fleet, LH would use the PW engines for LH and Swiss and the LEAP for the others - currently Eurowings and Brussels.

In a borader context , the LH mainline has now a reduced pilot workforce derived from retirements and leaves during the pandemic, thus being able to move up to 20 widebodies or 34 narrow bodies out of this tariff.

As an educated guess, i would suppose that in the coming 3-4 years all A319 would leave the fleet of the mainline ( 13 retired due to age and replaced operationall by A223 at LH City and 10 transferred to LH city

Austrian needs a larger upcoming fleet decision, as their 321 are ageing and nearly 10 A320 would need to be repalced by end of the decade as well.

[oldblueeyes]

No they are equipped with P&W 1100 GTF, SN flies with CFM LEAP

furthermore, I interpreted this TRF to LH on as somewhat of a confirmation that OS would get some of the MAX order. But EAF placed these MAXes all with EWL. As far as I know this is not confirmed but if OS doesn't get the MAX to replace its aging airbuses said transfer of NEO's doesn't make sense. So eiter OS will get the MAX (although this is not on EAF, they could be wrong or LHG could exercise options).

As to your question on wether or not this is to compensate for P&W equipped NEO's that are grounded
If you look on EAF on Lufthansa's page, you can see the German registration of the OS NEO's fils the gaps that the transfer of CL NEO's leaves suspiciously well, this leads me to think these NEO's were planned to have a temporary stay at OS (eg until the MAX arrived). If you look at what this transfer from OS to LH + new NEO's to be delivered in 2025 (and 2026) means in terms of capacity for LH, you would see 20 additional NEO's in real terms (9 new for VL, 6 new for LH + 5 transferred from OS (I didn't count the 5 from CL as they already provide capacity for LH). These 20 planes allow for the retirement of quite a few older A319 and maybe A320, especially when you consider the transfer of LH flights between MUC and FRA and ZRH, GVA and BRU to LX and SN respectively. Eg they could retire the 13 oldest A319's in the mainline fleet, transfer the younger 10 (12-15 YO) to VL + retire the 4 oldest A320 with LH or they could maybe retire the aging A319 of CL. That way the A319 would disappear from the mainline LH fleet which would make sense from a cost perspective.

I'd rather bet on following model:
- the ageing 319 (16 at LH plus 6 al CLH) would be replace by 223 at VL
- the remaining 319 ( 10+6) would be redistributed tactically as LH would look to lower cost and CLH would cease operations 2027 - there are 10 more to be come to VL, thus 6 open for retirements, re-allocation etc
- LH would need some 320 NEOs to fill late CEO allocations going to other brands - currently 3 allocated to 4Y and likely more to come for the MUC base, 1 allocated to WK, likely something to come to SN as well if not new A321 as rumored (keep the 2 aircraft per year pace in mind)
- some older A321 of LH would approach retirement soon - although their lifespan may be prolonged as they were sitting around for 3 years during the pandemic

Overall i would expect as well some activation of the additional purchase options:
- Airbus 320 family - 20 options
-Airbus 220 family - 20 options on top of the 40 orders
-Boeing 737 - 60 options on top of the 40 orders

[crew1990]

-Apparently the 737max have a high chance to go to Eurowings.

-A bunch of 787-9 are ready to be delivered but the business class seat have not yet been approved by the FAA, one of the solution could be that Lufthansa could use them without busisness class at the begin.

-The 3 A330-200 of Discover are planned to leave the fleet and will be replaced by other aircraft. It has not been decided yet between 787, A350 or A330neo, but they will need aircraft with a bigger range than the A330-300 anyway. It will all depend on the delivery of the long haul aircraft at Lufthansa mainline self as this is the main focus point at the moment.

[oldblueeyes]

This is partially correct.

The Allegris business cabin has seats from 3 manufacturers. Among them, 1 is not certified yet, the super Diamond from Collins. LH is not the single airline affected, American Airlines has also as of now half a dozen of aircraft in the queue, as they should be delivered with the new business class.AA is having 7 aircraft produced and another 4 on the production line.

LH has now 13 new frames built, apparently 2 more being ready in the coming months, plus 7 NTU's acquired during the pandemic. As compensation for the 779 delays, there were 7 additonal 787 ordered with initial delivery terms 2025-26, likely now coming 2 years later.

The 332 at Discover are supposed to be replaced by 333 from the mainline ( 789 here as replacement for 343,333 and 789 going to Austrian). But, as Discover is flying some of the oldest 333 and around end of the decade there may be some need for replacements, there are some rumors on actively searching for something new - the 4 A350 ex Phillipines Airlines were rumored, as Edelweiss is going for that model as well.

The 789 deliveries are obviously the bottleneck.

[crew1990]

This is partially correct.

The Allegris business cabin has seats from 3 manufacturers. Among them, 1 is not certified yet, the super Diamond from Collins. LH is not the single airline affected, American Airlines has also as of now half a dozen of aircraft in the queue, as they should be delivered with the new business class.AA is having 7 aircraft produced and another 4 on the production line.

LH has now 13 new frames built, apparently 2 more being ready in the coming months, plus 7 NTU's acquired during the pandemic. As compensation for the 779 delays, there were 7 additonal 787 ordered with initial delivery terms 2025-26, likely now coming 2 years later.

The 332 at Discover are supposed to be replaced by 333 from the mainline ( 789 here as replacement for 343,333 and 789 going to Austrian). But, as Discover is flying some of the oldest 333 and around end of the decade there may be some need for replacements, there are some rumors on actively searching for something new - the 4 A350 ex Phillipines Airlines were rumored, as Edelweiss is going for that model as well.

The 789 deliveries are obviously the bottleneck.

This is not about rumour or whatsoever, but those 3 informations I just shared are coming from Carsten Spohr self a couple of days ago at a Lufthansa group meeting during a Q&A session with the employees of the whole group... Those are totally corect, not partially.

I share those informations here since those informations became public due to a leak on other website and from then are available for everyone so I just wanted to share it with this community here.

I'm not giving an opinion or a point of view, I just like, as an insider, share some extra informations that I know from the source (if I have the possibilitiy to do so)