Alitalia saved by the Government and reborn as ITA Airways

[Atlantis]

You lack logic.

LIN base flies to BRU. BRU base flies to MXP.
Code shares on everything.

Win-Win.

Stop thinking on what's paint on the airplane, this doesn't matter.

This we all know, but we are talking about connectivity. BRU is less directly connected with European cities. For long haul is understandable to connect via another airport, but within Europe??? If we compare with 3 to 4 years ago, there are less destinations served and less direct.

Maybe high time that you start to think on another logic way. It's for sure not a win-win for pax which are the bread and butter for an airline. Without you will fly nowhere.

[TimTam]

Hello guys ! Troll TiTa here again
I don't mind flying ITA between LIN BRU vv. on a larger plane, but what bothers me is the decrease in frequencies to LIN.
Nobody wants to fly to "malpensato" when you can fly to LIN. There is no point in flying to an airport nobody wants to fly to/from for European flights.
I am sure there are more interesting and lucrative destinations to send that SN aircraft to.

[oldblueeyes]

That is a huge catchment area.

If you want to fly to Varese as a Region or not directly to Torino, MXP is the better option.
Makes sense to serve both, if a market share decrease in LIN is a must.

[TimTam]

I hope you are right, but I have my doubts.
I also have my doubts whether this ITA A321neo configuration "across the Mediterranean" will have the blessing of the Big Boss when he really has the power to take over

https://onemileatatime.com/news/ita-air ... s-a321neo/

The logical answer should be yes if it is profitable, but so far the main objective has been harmonizing the fleet.

[fcw]

I don't mind flying ITA between LIN BRU vv. on a larger plane, but what bothers me is the decrease in frequencies to LIN.

Why is the decrease in frequency bothering you? ITA and SN are flying more or less the same schedule, so less flights doesn’t mean less flexibility. Also, with a loco operating the route prices should decrease, so from a customer point of view there’s nothing to worry about.
Despite code and revenue sharing SN losing the slots remains a problem though as LIN slots are quite valuable. (LIN slots which were transferred, for free, from Sabena to Brussels airlines, by the way!)

[TimTam]

quoting oeb :
"Now coming to ITA
- the "feeder" bullshit - IF YOU WERE AN INTELLIGENT GUY (?) you could read and understand some annual reports of the companies you are talking to - Lufthansa has since 2 decades a feeder in Italy, called Dolomiti"

First, I do not have time to read annual reports of airlines ; I did not know this forum was reserved for economists and other kind of experts.
Secondly, perhaps you are retired and have plenty of time, or you read these report at work, because it is your work, or without your boss noticing it, or you find it fun to read, which is your perfect right, but in my leisure time, I do things which to me seem much for fun to do (not always, but usually I take part in this forum when travelling and when the surrounding crouds and noise prevent me from concentrating on professional matters) If the forum is reserved to economists and aviation experts, please can one of the senior moderators tell this is not a place for me.

still quoting oeb :
" if you would know a little bit the Italian market, you may have realized that the North of Italy is anyhow a kind of extended Lufthansa Home Market - there is no hub in Northern Italy, where population density and incomes are high".

Please, explain why the Lufthansa Italia "adventure" did not work ? As to Air Dolomiti, out of experience I can tell you that most of the time they never fly on time and never be surprised if you miss your connection.

That's all (sorry) I know about the Northern Italian market. A failed initiative and a "seldom on time airline" and travellers turning to easyjet and FR.
SN at malpensato is, of course, going to be a major game changer.

[DannyVDB]

Just a quick response from my side ...

I flew both LIN and MXP. More MXP because I was around 40 times visiting the EC Joint Research center in Ispra at the Lago Maggiore (> 3.000 staff working and a lot of traffic between Brussels and MXP). The latter is also a very busy tourist destination. Also people tend to use MXP to take the train to the coast of Liguria, to Genoa (I usually fly to Nice and then take the train), Turin, etc.

So it is not about Milan only. Having both LIN and MXP in your portfolio is a must. With ITA and SN this will be the case I suppose (unless ITA has also to give up slots on the BRU-LIN route) ... And better to have 3 planes filled every day than 6 planes that are half empty (I don't know current load factors though).

Cheers,
Danny

[oldblueeyes]

It's hard to explain to those not flying regularly trough Europe.
And to those not understanding numbers and economics.

[oldblueeyes]

quoting oeb :

Please, explain why the Lufthansa Italia "adventure" did not work ? As to Air Dolomiti, out of experience I can tell you that most of the time they never fly on time and never be surprised if you miss your connection.

That's all (sorry) I know about the Northern Italian market. A failed initiative and a "seldom on time airline" and travellers turning to easyjet and FR.
SN at malpensato is, of course, going to be a major game changer.

So let me answer you :

- Italy and especially Northern Italy is the major feeder market for Lufthansa and with one of the several re-roganisations of Alitalia there was an opporrtunity to dive deeper into this market
- idea was brilliant, execution miserable:
a. at that time LH didn't had a proper low cost unit- the old Germanwings was a pure leisure company flying from decentral airports but close to LH costs
b. because of the worng brand name (LH) the personnel cost were high
c. aircraft choise was poor - low density A319
d. positioning was unclear

Early 2010's there was a shift in the group strategy with respect to the brands
- Dolomiti was not anymore offering internal flights in Italy and became 100% feeder of the 2 hubs from secondary airports plus was operating wet leases from the hubs to routes served before by Augsburg Air and Contact air
- Malpensa went to the decentral bases, reconsolidated 1 year later under "new Germanwings" what is today Eurowings

I would not exect any Dolomiti aircraft in MXP - their role is to feed with small aircraft from small airports ( and likely they would do this for ITA in the future as well), but an airport with 30 mio pax is ideal for A320fam.

And with the large long haul leisure base TUI has there, i won't be surprised to see one day something similar to Edelweiss, Discover etc from MXP.

[b720]

quoting oeb :

Please, explain why the Lufthansa Italia "adventure" did not work ? As to Air Dolomiti, out of experience I can tell you that most of the time they never fly on time and never be surprised if you miss your connection.

That's all (sorry) I know about the Northern Italian market. A failed initiative and a "seldom on time airline" and travellers turning to easyjet and FR.
SN at malpensato is, of course, going to be a major game changer.

So let me answer you :

- Italy and especially Northern Italy is the major feeder market for Lufthansa and with one of the several re-roganisations of Alitalia there was an opporrtunity to dive deeper into this market
- idea was brilliant, execution miserable:
a. at that time LH didn't had a proper low cost unit- the old Germanwings was a pure leisure company flying from decentral airports but close to LH costs
b. because of the worng brand name (LH) the personnel cost were high
c. aircraft choise was poor - low density A319
d. positioning was unclear

Early 2010's there was a shift in the group strategy with respect to the brands
- Dolomiti was not anymore offering internal flights in Italy and became 100% feeder of the 2 hubs from secondary airports plus was operating wet leases from the hubs to routes served before by Augsburg Air and Contact air
- Malpensa went to the decentral bases, reconsolidated 1 year later under "new Germanwings" what is today Eurowings

I would not exect any Dolomiti aircraft in MXP - their role is to feed with small aircraft from small airports ( and likely they would do this for ITA in the future as well), but an airport with 30 mio pax is ideal for A320fam.

And with the large long haul leisure base TUI has there, i won't be surprised to see one day something similar to Edelweiss, Discover etc from MXP.

LIN - BRU always full on both ita and SN. And prices are rather steep.. if SN stops flying to LIN it is only logical that ITA will increase the frequencies..

[oldblueeyes]

LH Group would have to give up the Slots.

So the solution is 321.

ITA does not have them im LIN, SN dors not have 321 at all.

The NEO's can fly up to 230 Pax.

[b720]

LH Group would have to give up the Slots.

So the solution is 321.

ITA does not have them im LIN, SN dors not have 321 at all.

The NEO's can fly up to 230 Pax.

Bru - LIN LIN - BR
AZ SN AZ. SN
09:25. 09:50. 07:00. 06:55
15:35. 16:35. 13:00. 12:00
20:25. 20:50. 18:00. 18:50

ITA can easily take over the route maintain 3 flights a day
And increase capacity..

[LJ]

Please, explain why the Lufthansa Italia "adventure" did not work ? As to Air Dolomiti, out of experience I can tell you that most of the time they never fly on time and never be surprised if you miss your connection.

That's all (sorry) I know about the Northern Italian market. A failed initiative and a "seldom on time airline" and travellers turning to easyjet and FR.
SN at malpensato is, of course, going to be a major game changer.

The only reason why LH Groups takes over ITA is because they don't want AF/KL in its backyard. Moreover, in essence LH Group now has its "Lufthansa Italia", just not in the way originally intended.

LIN - BRU always full on both ita and SN. And prices are rather steep.. if SN stops flying to LIN it is only logical that ITA will increase the frequencies..

Doesn't LH Group need to make room for a competitor on flights like LIN - BRU? Wouldn't surprise me if Ryanair or easyJet are going after such slots and then those steep prices can become lower. BTW my apologies, I haven't read the EU decision paper on the LH Group takeover yet and on the EU website it relates to LH only, no mentioning of SN or any other airline in the LH Group in a detailed analysis (which they've done in previous cases).

[jan_olieslagers]

LIN is a short-haul airport. Short-haul air travel within Europe is going downslope, like it or leave it. Sooner or later LIN is going to close, or at best be limited to general aviation. Same as happened in Berlin.

[lumumba]

LIN is a short-haul airport. Short-haul air travel within Europe is going downslope, like it or leave it. Sooner or later LIN is going to close, or at best be limited to general aviation. Same as happened in Berlin.

When they closed Berlin airport it was a courageous political decision I'm not sure the same thing will happen here.
Look at Antwerp airport which costs the region millions and it's still open and Linate is very profitable.

[b720]

LIN is a short-haul airport. Short-haul air travel within Europe is going downslope, like it or leave it. Sooner or later LIN is going to close, or at best be limited to general aviation. Same as happened in Berlin.

When they closed Berlin airport it was a courageous political decision I'm not sure the same thing will happen here.
Look at Antwerp airport which costs the region millions and it's still open and Linate is very profitable.

I don’t think that linate will shut down anytime soon.
They just upgraded the terminal in 2020-2021 .. the airport
Shut down for a few months for a complete overhaul. Then the city of Milan invested heavily in a state of the art new metro line that connects linate to the Center of Milan. The metro line just opened end of last year. Making LIN one of the most practical airports in Europe.. touch down to downtown in not more than 20 min.

[oldblueeyes]

No need to close LIN as it seeves well as City airport.
The region has so much traffic that it accomodates 3 airports around Milan plus smaller airports in Verona, Torino etc.
LIN's future is for sure on higher end short haul, budget oriented public would rather be routed towards Bergamo.

[jan_olieslagers]

I was not aware of the recent investments in the Linate airport (thanks for info!), these will surely push the closure further back in time.
Even so, excuse me for sticking to my point: Linate is a short-haul airport, and short-haul air travel in Europe is on its way out.

[lumumba]

I was not aware of the recent investments in the Linate airport (thanks for info!), these will surely push the closure further back in time.
Even so, excuse me for sticking to my point: Linate is a short-haul airport, and short-haul air travel in Europe is on its way out.

I hope you are right.
Enjoy Portugal by the way eu vive la também....

[jan_olieslagers]

Location: brussels Europe

eu vive la também

Hm, as confused as ever, apparently...