Air Belgium in 2023

[Matt]

There is a difference between filling the planes and making profit. Seems like many dreamers will never understand that.

This

This is why I asked if someone can provide figures on profit on the South Africa flights. Something I still don't see

[JOVAN2]

There is a difference between filling the planes and making profit. Seems like many dreamers will never understand that.

This

This is why I asked if someone can provide figures on profit on the South Africa flights. Something I still don't see

From colleagues travelling Southern Africa (=RSA + neighbouring countries) I head that AB flights were ok: very full and good service; and on time.
They even prefer this flights from BRU rather than transiting via the Hell of Schiphol or Frankfurt.

If flights would have been empty, that would have been a first sign of problems.Filling the planes is a good start.

As for the figures: I propose you provide first the figures on losses on this flights to RSA.
Maybe you can call Terzakis and maybe he will be happy to tell you all his secrets and plans...

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[Matt]

As for the figures: I propose you provide first the figures on losses on this flights to RSA.
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This comment made me chuckle

"Hello Mr Terzakis, according to my numbers that I drew up in an Excel sheet using a random generator, you should be making losses, care to explain?" Why should I provide figures on losses so they can show they are actually making profit?

I grew up in South Africa and I saw Sabena and Sobelair (and I believe I flew once with Citybird as a kid? ) fail miserably on this route. Why? Mostly lack of cargo. Load factors weren't bad on these flights as far as I remember, they were always full in terms of passengers.

I KNOW FOR A FACT that the SA market is a very hard market to penetrate into. That's why SN is keeping their hands off SA. Too risky. KLM and British Airways both have a very big stronghold on these markets because they are all former colonies. (heck, before Covid there was a twice daily flight LHR-JNB , 2 full a380's and 1 B747 to CPT and 1 787 to DUR ... and now it's 1 A380 and 1 b787 to JNB and 1 777 to CPT ) I am even forgetting about Virgin Atlantic.

KLM, LH, LX, VS and BA do not make huge profits on these flights passenger wise, Profit for these airliners are all cargo. (I got this info from a very reliable source) This is also the sole reason why LH uses a B747-8 on the FRA-JNB route and why LX uses an a340. CARGO.

So frankly that's why I ask myself for profit numbers with an A330 that cannot take off with a full Payload from JNB. (and don't get me started on TK, IST is a lot closer to JNB then to BRU and they are using an A359 now)

Same thing with SAA (ok there were other problems there as well, so not 100% comparable) . They started using A330's for their flights to LHR, that did not end up well at all for them profit wise (even tough those flights were full passenger wise ) SAA had a really nice service. Sometimes, a nice service ain't enough.

I also believe the KF flights are Red-eyes? Means those planes are sitting still in SA for quite some time (also costly) . (this is the Reason why AMS-JNB and AMS-CPT are not red eyes and that I avoid those flights like cholera)

Don't get me wrong here. I am very much rooting for AB to succeed on this route (and to succeed in general) I am just very skeptical and I do not believe that expanding in the SA market was a wise thing to do for AB at this point in time .

[rwandan-flyer]

Before covid JNB-LHR operated by British Airways was the second most profitable route in Africa. They earned 295 167 492 USD (it's bigger than the 2018 Air Serbia turnover https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_Serbia). CPT-LHR was ranked 9th with 175 605 201 USD. https://www.theafricareport.com/16559/a ... le-routes/

South Africa is a high yield destination, mainly to Johannesburg while Cape Town is mainly VFR & leisure. Many airlines from Asia, Africa, USA and Europe serve both CPT & JNB. Even with the "invasion" of Gulf Airlines, there are still room. Austrian serves CPT but not JNB, TAP was supposed to resume flights to South Africa in 2020 but to CPT and not JNB.

Air France has just resumed CPT-CDG service, Kenya Airways sends its 787s to CPT,.....

Each company, each line has its own costs and suppliers, who charge different prices. Generally, the most profitable routes have a large proportion of business class travellers, who will pay a high price, or a large passenger market in tourism class throughout the year.

According to the analyst, Johannesburg Airport seems to have a combination of these two assets.

During the 2010s only 2 Europeans airlines failed : Alitalia (but the airline was in very bad situation) and Iberia which resumed for the second time their route to Johannesburg. But Iberia has closed almost all its routes to Sub-Saharan Africa : Lagos, Luanda, Accra, Malabo. Only Dakar is still serving. Same thing with British Airways which closed in 2010s all its loss making routes in Africa: Tanzania, Seychelles, Zimbabwe, Zambia, Liberia, Sierra Leone, Malawi and Uganda. We can also add Jet Airways

About the aircraft that are used to SA (mainly to JNB), i don't agree with you. Some aof these aircraft have the first class. The B777 that AF sends to JNB are fitted with the first class, same thing with the LH 747-8I, Swiss A340s (the A330 is probably too small for the market and the B777-300 too big), British Airways A380s & B787-9s,...

[fcw]

I grew up in South Africa and I saw Sabena and Sobelair (and I believe I flew once with Citybird as a kid? ) fail miserably on this route. Why? Mostly lack of cargo. Load factors weren't bad on these flights as far as I remember, they were always full in terms of passengers.

Very good analysis!
Sabena was always full, both passenger and cargo wise. On days with strong northerly winds the 747-300 even had to make a fuel stop in Rome or Nice and even then the route was not generating any profit.

Your “CityBird” memory is probably the, damp leased*, MD-11 from CityBird which operated JNB, for Sabena in 2000-2001. (*Sabena cockpit crew was detached to CityBird and leased back with the aircraft to Sabena)

[fcw]

Before covid JNB-LHR operated by British Airways was the second most profitable route in Africa. They earned 295 167 492 USD (it's bigger than the 2018

You are mixing up revenue with profit.
BA was operating an A380 double daily, the fuel bill alone to do that is more than 100 million USD/year.

[OO-JFP]

Going even further in time, Braniff offered weekly flights from SFO to BRU at an introductory price of $49. I am old enough to remember and I met with people who did it.

sn26567, I fail to see what the relevance is of your post in this topic. You are talking of an airline that flew to Brussels >40yrs ago, their services hardly lasted 2 years.

With respect to (eventual) direct flights by ABB to SFO (or LAX) from BRU, I'm old enough to tell you that Braniff never had scheduled direct flights between the US west coast and BRU (the same goes for other European airports they have served (AMS, CDG, LHR, LGW and FRA).
All flights to those cities departed from DFW, BOS or JFK.

https://m.facebook.com/braniffinternati ... 59/?type=3
http://www.uvairlines.com/airgroup/braniff.htm
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Braniff_I ... al_Airways

However, I do have fond memories of their orange B747's (incl SP's) and colourful DC.8-62's (incl. N1805 in Calder c/s) who usually parked at the satellite building in BRU.
https://www.jetphotos.com/photo/9267727

OO-JFP

[crew1990]

Review of an Air Belgium kind of empty flight to Mauritius

[sn26567]

Going even further in time, Braniff offered weekly flights from SFO to BRU at an introductory price of $49. I am old enough to remember and I met with people who did it.

sn26567, I fail to see what the relevance is of your post in this topic. You are talking of an airline that flew to Brussels >40yrs ago, their services hardly lasted 2 years.

With respect to (eventual) direct flights by ABB to SFO (or LAX) from BRU, I'm old enough to tell you that Braniff never had scheduled direct flights between the US west coast and BRU (the same goes for other European airports they have served (AMS, CDG, LHR, LGW and FRA).
All flights to those cities departed from DFW, BOS or JFK.

OO-JFP

Sorry, my mistake. It was People Express Airlines (in short PEOPLExpress), not Braniff, which operated those flights between SFO and BRU. PEOPLExpress started on 20 November 1985 a once-weekly direct flight to SFO every Wednesday. Fares were $99 during the first month; afterwards, it was $249. Those flights didn't last long, due to the enormous debt of the company, which was merged into Continental in June 1986.

From Skystef:

Relevance of the post on this topic? The possibility for Air Belgium to launch flights to the US West Coast and the precedents on these routes.

[JOVAN2]

Review of an Air Belgium kind of empty flight to Mauritius

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1zEIYWwrwyw

AB would better leave Mauritius to the French. Same story as Guadeloupe & Martinique.
Or Curacao & Bonaire: leave it to the Dutch.

concentrate on US West Coast, Mexico & Brazil. And RSA.

[VoloperTe]

Review of an Air Belgium kind of empty flight to Mauritius

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1zEIYWwrwyw

AB would better leave Mauritius to the French. Same story as Guadeloupe & Martinique.
Or Curacao & Bonaire: leave it to the Dutch.

concentrate on US West Coast, Mexico & Brazil. And RSA.

Sorry but have you seen or heard any advertisement of Air Belgium on TV or radio in Belgium? NO! In the Nederland, France or Germany to fill flights to Mauritius, Curacao, Punta Cana,... ?? NO advertisement !
Air Belgium is managed in an amateur way... what does the sales&marketing team ??

[Lux_avi]

concentrate on US West Coast, Mexico & Brazil. And RSA.

And definitely get ruined...

[VoloperTe]

Is anyone here able to say which destination(s) of Air Belgium have a good load factor ? And above all, make a profit !!

[fcw]

Is anyone here able to say which destination(s) of Air Belgium have a good load factor ? And above all, make a profit !!

That’s commercially sensitive information, not suitable for publication here.

[crew1990]

To be honest, the only route I could see them succeed as a passenger airline is Kinshasa. But will never happend unless they got traffic right. All the rest is deem to fait without right partner.

It’s time for Air Belgium to stop their PAX operation and focus on cargo. If not they will be forced to stop all activities.

[fcw]

To be honest, the only route I could see them succeed as a passenger airline is Kinshasa. But will never happend unless they got traffic right. All the rest is deem to fait without right partner.

It’s time for Air Belgium to stop their PAX operation and focus on cargo. If not they will be forced to stop all activities.

Good summary: FIH, ACMI and ad hoc are probably the only viable passenger options.

[TLspotting]

To be honest, the only route I could see them succeed as a passenger airline is Kinshasa. But will never happend unless they got traffic right. All the rest is deem to fait without right partner.

It’s time for Air Belgium to stop their PAX operation and focus on cargo. If not they will be forced to stop all activities.

Good summary: FIH, ACMI and ad hoc are probably the only viable passenger options.

FIH, we talked about this a few days ago... We could see CAA come on the route but I don't think that a second Belgian would be useful.

[ZavCity]

CAA is not allowed to fly to Europe

[Matt]

CAA is not allowed to fly to Europe

Technically, with a foreign crew and foreign registration on the aircraft; it can.

[fcw]

CAA is not allowed to fly to Europe

Technically, with a foreign crew and foreign registration on the aircraft; it can.

(Off topic)
The nationality of aircraft and crew are irrelevant, it’s the AOC which can’t be Congolese.