Brussels Airlines in 2020

[Poiu]

Looks like Belgium is not ready to save Brussels Airlines I think this would be a BIG BIG mistake....

On the contrary, I think they are looking into a way to save them. But I guess they are not stupid to throw money into it without thinking twice.

Absolutely and rightfully so, and the participation in LH, which is rumoured in the press, is more or less what I was preaching here: invest in a branch of a solid, if that word still has meaning in today’s aviation world, group.
I used IAG as an example as, I think, when the sector recovers they will be the first ones who will have capacity problems especially because the 3 te runway at LHR has been put back in the fridge, but LH is the more obvious choice for the moment.
Those on here who think SN will continue to operate 45 aircraft and employ 3500 people in the near and midterm future are in for a nasty wake up call though.

[Poiu]

Performance from the past is irrelevant now: aviation is back where it was on 11th September 2001.

Irrelevant if you let it go.
If your house is full of cracks you can’t just put some paint and pretend they are gone. The house will collapse during the aftershocks.

[sean1982]

Everybody who works as a crew for a competitor airline has friends flying at Brussels Airlines, and none of these people wish to see their friends without a job anytime soon.

or worked indeed. Hear hear

[Conti764]

Looks like Belgium is not ready to save Brussels Airlines I think this would be a BIG BIG mistake....

On the contrary, I think they are looking into a way to save them. But I guess they are not stupid to throw money into it without thinking twice.

Absolutely and rightfully so, and the participation in LH, which is rumoured in the press, is more or less what I was preaching here: invest in a branch of a solid, if that word still has meaning in today’s aviation world, group.
I used IAG as an example as, I think, when the sector recovers they will be the first ones who will have capacity problems especially because the 3 te runway at LHR has been put back in the fridge, but LH is the more obvious choice for the moment.
Those on here who think SN will continue to operate 45 aircraft and employ 3500 people in the near and midterm future are in for a nasty wake up call though.

I cannot recall anyone suggesting to continue SN just as it was...

[Inquirer]

Everybody who works as a crew for a competitor airline has friends flying at Brussels Airlines, and none of these people wish to see their friends without a job anytime soon.

or worked indeed. Hear hear

Btw- I know this topic is about Brussels Airlines, but TUI Airlines Belgium is reportedly seeking around €150M from the FPIC too now: it backs up my idea that in both cases, the money is essentially needed to fund their flight operations when they go back online, flying with very low occupation levels for an extended period of time as a return to commercial normality will take quite some time?

But let's not focus on (in)direct employment too much here: the aim is to safeguard the strategic infrastructure which an nation's own airlines essentially are, not (just) the jobs at it; their rescue is but a positive side effect.

Belgians have a well documented traditional preference for bricks and thus tend to think the hard infrastructure like an airport (i.e. the bricks) is far more important to a country than the soft infrastructure (i.e. the based operators at it), but I'd agrue that without home based operators, the airport (even a bussy one) is pretty useless to your economy something underpinned by the extensive report from the NBB André referred to yesterday evening, not just when it comes to the (in)direct employment, but also to the BNP generated per passenger. We absolutely need to protect our BNP from faling through the floor and getting it back up as soon as we can, as each month like this one is estimated to cost us 3% of our BNP and we need a sufficiently high BNP to keep paying for our social security, our pensions, or schools... if not, long term, cut backs will have to be performed to them.

[Inquirer]

On the contrary, I think they are looking into a way to save them. But I guess they are not stupid to throw money into it without thinking twice.

Absolutely and rightfully so, and the participation in LH, which is rumoured in the press, is more or less what I was preaching here: invest in a branch of a solid, if that word still has meaning in today’s aviation world, group.
I used IAG as an example as, I think, when the sector recovers they will be the first ones who will have capacity problems especially because the 3 te runway at LHR has been put back in the fridge, but LH is the more obvious choice for the moment.
Those on here who think SN will continue to operate 45 aircraft and employ 3500 people in the near and midterm future are in for a nasty wake up call though.

I cannot recall anyone suggesting to continue SN just as it was...

The number of airlines which have come forward stating they will return smaller is pretty telling already.
Which also means the idea pushed by Poiu makes not much sense, as British Airways will likely be smaller too and not be in such urgent need of additional capacity on the continent as they may have been before.
It would take years before you could get from them here in BRU, what you can get back the very moment Brussels Airlines starts flying again. We just don't have the luxury to wait for that.

Anyway, basically the concept is what seems could now be in the pipeline: Belgium taking a participation in the bigger holding company which owns Brussels Airlines.
This mechanism used to save Fortis is a smart move, as it gives you strategic leverage over the bigger entity stearing the group's strategy and a lucrative share in the overall profits, even if our local operations are for some reason less succcessful (they take the heat for the wider group maybe?).
The only difference I see is that for some inexplicable reason it MUST absolutely be IAG for Poiu, and absolutely not Lufthansa, even though it would mean changing the whole commercial and strategic orientation here at BRU, right at a moment when you'd need to do as much as you could to offer as much continuity where you can... Not the smartest ideas indeed as it is far too time consuming, sorry.
As I said: forget about specific names or individual products; look at the structure and the DNA: a child is your child because it has your genes, NOT because it carries your name.

[Inquirer]

Meanwhile, in France and the Netherlands, where both governments have been strategically participating in the AF-KLM holding since some time, both shareholders have decided to provide state guarantees for loans to AF and KLM respectively as the preferred way of safeguarding their national airlines: France for 4BN, Holland for 2BN.

https://www.hln.be/nieuws/buitenland/fr ... ~ab5c00a0/

and with this I go back to work as home office is making it far too easy to spend half a day surfing online... and doing basically nothing at the same time.

[Poiu]

the participation in LH, which is rumoured in the press, is more or less what I was preaching here: invest in a branch of a solid, if that word still has meaning in today’s aviation world, group.
I used IAG as an example as, I think, when the sector recovers...

The only difference I see is that for some inexplicable reason it MUST absolutely be IAG for Poiu, and absolutely not Lufthansa,

Where did I say absolutely IAG and absolutely not LH???

[lumumba]

Meanwhile, in France and the Netherlands, where both governments have been strategically participating in the AF-KLM holding since some time, both shareholders have decided to provide state guarantees for loans to AF and KLM respectively as the preferred way of safeguarding their national airlines: France for 4BN, Holland for 2BN.

https://www.hln.be/nieuws/buitenland/fr ... ~ab5c00a0/

and with this I go back to work as home office is making it far too easy to spend half a day surfing online... and doing basically nothing at the same time.

That's good news.

[Luke777]

Minister Decroo first wants to be informed why SN needs the extra money for, as government already took over most part of labour costs now...good question

[Atlantis]

Aviation is one big family, this is another world.
It doesn't matter if you work for the airport, redcap, airline, handling, cleaning, we are one.

Nobody want to see SN going busted bcs it would have a huge impact for everybody.

This is a terrible difficult time for everybody. Commercial aviation will be smaller. Big airlines like AA took more then 100 planes out of the fleet. They are not the only one.

It will be smaller but better quality, maybe more revenue. The whole model will change

[sn26567]

A330 OO-SFG departed at 06:30 to Dakar DSS as SN9933 (for a repatriation flight).

... and then operated SN1040 from Dakar DSS to Cologne/Bonn.

[Conti764]

It will be smaller but better quality, maybe more revenue. The whole model will change

That's like saying Ryanair will disappear.
For legacy carriers maybe, but low cost airlines will remain successful in my opinion.

Me thinks aviation will be more clearly diversified... True full service carriers, true low cost carriers and leisure carriers. The hybrid model of amongst others SN will disappear.

[cathay belgium]

Hi,

No...

No need to bring them all together...
No need for Air Belgium... More old Four engined wings for where... ?? Only one leisure destination which worked while fuel was at its lowest cost.. let it go..
No need for Air Antwerp... An old plane for only LCY With Brexit and Economy falling... And lots of flights only 30 km further...
TUI ... Belgium nationalisation of a holiday package.. don't think it's a strategic need for our country..
If they make money they can otherwise there will be a gap to fill ... Which can be filled in by any other company which believes it can make money here...

In the future those gaps will be filled in with Easyjet or Ryanair anyway... If TUI can't make money with their own Planes...
Look at the core business while in hard times...

So leaves SN, many things can be said, Future Will Tell..

Our government has no money, so first things first..
Aviation is important, but holidays and rich biz routes can't be first priority...

Guess the mantra of IAG-KLM/AF-Luftie-FR-U2 at last can be very real soon...

Besides aviation more companies need urgent funding...

CXB

[sean1982]

Hi,

No...

No need to bring them all together...
No need for Air Belgium... More old Four engined wings for where... ?? Only one leisure destination which worked while fuel was at its lowest cost.. let it go..
No need for Air Antwerp... An old plane for only LCY With Brexit and Economy falling... And lots of flights only 30 km further...
TUI ... Belgium nationalisation of a holiday package.. don't think it's a strategic need for our country..
If they make money they can otherwise there will be a gap to fill ... Which can be filled in by any other company which believes it can make money here...

In the future those gaps will be filled in with Easyjet or Ryanair anyway... If TUI can't make money with their own Planes...
Look at the core business while in hard times...

So leaves SN, many things can be said, Future Will Tell..

Our government has no money, so first things first..
Aviation is important, but holidays and rich biz routes can't be first priority...

Guess the mantra of IAG-KLM/AF-Luftie-FR-U2 at last can be very real soon...

Besides aviation more companies need urgent funding...

CXB

Funny, you want to dump TUI who has been the best pupil in the TUI branch, who went sustainably in 16 years time from 4 old B737 to a fleet of 31 most of them factory new b737 and B787...

But you are ok with dumping public money in a company that hasn’t made a profit in nearly its whole existence, is in a cost restructuring program, even if its flying only old hand-me-down airplanes with a none consistent brand and none consistent business approach and even in pre-Corona times with very to relatively low fuel prices had a bleak future to start with. Begrijpe wie begrijpe kan

[Inquirer]

Maybe because it isn't about preserving shiny new planes, a certain smiling brand name or a few millions of profit or loss every year, but about strategic importance to our country's economy, Sean?

You're not the only one with a memory: just the other day you've told me it was condescending to explain what strategic means, but you still seem not to have understood that it is more important for our country's economy to have an airline linking our capital to as many business centres as possible multiple times daily, than it is to link (regional) airports with holiday destinations around the Mediterranean or the Caribbean.

Once this Corona pandemic be over, the focus won't be on going abroad to relax I'm afraid, but bringing as much business to Belgium as possible; we better still have an established platform to do that on, as I strongly doubt a renationalized KLM, BA or any any other foreign airline is going to come over and be as kind as to do us a favour and establish it for us: their (new) shareholders are going to go to great lengths to deflect any such traffic to their countries.

And no, that doesn't mean I have said TUI shoudn't somehow be included in the support measures of our government for aviation, just saying it is maybe not the number one priority indeed?

A good start might be to take back control of the airport, to merge it with the handlers operating on it, to give B.air a bridge loan convertible in shares of Lufthansa proper (to secure a portion of their annual profits AND have strategic influence over future group decisions and deflect some group traffic to BRU) and then when there's still money, see if TUI can be helped out too via a general mechanism to stimulate the business climate for aviation in Belgium to be able to bring return on investment for our economy?

BTW- De Standaard reports today that this 'best pupil of the class' like you lovingly call TUI Airlines Belgium is asking for a whopping €250M, so clearly 'best in class' doesn't mean that much either witin a group which has been given 1,8BN Euro from the German government as well.

It's really had for you to let go of long established feelings for certain airlines, isn't it?
I've advised you yesterday to simply forget about the name on the file as well as the past results of the company: just look at what they do and think about what is most precious in the period right after corona to get our economy back on its feet.

[sean1982]

Funny that is again, you cant resist the personal touch is it. How was the vinegar in your coffee this morning?

I thought the advantage to the economy was the fact of belgian airlines providing 4 jobs per flight, where foreign airlines only provide one? On that matter, TUI's fleet is only a bit smaller then SN's, after corona, it will probably be equal if not bigger than SN. The "strategic connections" are well preserved through other airlines already anywat. They dont have to be created, they are there. For every business route SN flies, there is a national carrier of that same country flying it as well. It's not that SN is that much of a business carrier anyway as it morphed into a "Ryanair light" over the years. The biggest reason for its massive losses is just that. Focusing on cheap holiday customers instead of serving their core clients. Well its clear that TUI does a better job financially in dealing with that group of customers. I look at what they do and have done, you do too, with beergoggles on

As for the 250mEUR, you dont think SN is gonna stop at 200 do you?

Just like passenger, you still dont get its not about emotion. As Willie Walsh would say:"show me the fucking money ..."

[cathay belgium]

Hi,

I didn't say DUMP anywhere... Of TUI.
But think those flights in a few years Will go to FR or U2 anyway, low-cost and leisure will merge anyway...
Your fancy holiday book, hotels will still have the TUI smile ! Your flight will be with...

Hope people can still have so many holidays abroad every year but guess people don't see there Will be LESS needs for such...
1 job 2 food 3 clothing ... Then cultural you know...

When people are afraid of loosing their job they don't go to the beach...

Hope it won't be this way but everything is pointing this way...


So no big money for TUI but for 1000 small KMO's please...

If TUI fails and there is a need, another one fill the Gap with the same people...
And guess lowcost and booking.com is the future anyway... ( Altough I really like TUI )

The world is changing.. pity enough..
And aviation is just a small part of it, and maybe Four engines don't Care..but they are not economic.. and if you like to make ) need money... it hurts..

Like it or not everything Will changes and hope this government can lead us a better way...

CXB

[DeltaWiskey]

Funny, you want to dump TUI who has been the best pupil in the TUI branch, who went sustainably in 16 years time from 4 old B737 to a fleet of 31 most of them factory new b737 and B787...

But you are ok with dumping public money in a company that hasn’t made a profit in nearly its whole existence, is in a cost restructuring program, even if its flying only old hand-me-down airplanes with a none consistent brand and none consistent business approach and even in pre-Corona times with very to relatively low fuel prices had a bleak future to start with. Begrijpe wie begrijpe kan

Extending your logic: it is not sustainable if you have to ask for a 250million loan at the same time as your competitor, TUI Airlines Belgium is no better shape than Brussels Airlines.

To be honest, TUI Belgium might be "best in TUI-class" (source, anyone?), this is only thanks to the tour operator side. TUI Airlines Belgium is really not doing all that well, its losses have consistently been covered up by TUI Belgium (the whole BE branch). Over the past 15 years, TUI Airlines BE financial performance has been similar to the Brussels Airlines one.

Although I agree that if SN gets some kind of state aid, this should also apply to TB. Depending on the construction with their German counterparts, it might indeed be a solution to merge both of their operations and form one big "Belgian" carrier again. Although, this strongly contradicts my liberal views, if it saves jobs and has better future perspectives, why not consider it?

To get back on topic: https://www.tijd.be/ondernemen/luchtvaa ... 18831.html
-Brussels Airlines is not (yet) virtually bankrupt, has cash until the end of May.
-Currently losing €3million/day
-Not all politicians are fond of saving Brussels Airline, they did not forget how LH Group played a trick on them 3 years ago, taking over 55% of SN for €2,6million.
-Also TUI Belgium (!), Air Belgium, Swissport and Aviapartner asked for a bridging loan.
-Brussels Airlines carried 10mio pax in 2019, 40% of traffic at BRU, supports 4000 jobs directly and 10000 indirectly, important Star Alliance hub.
-One possibility is the issue of a convertible bond, a loan that can be converted in shares of LH Group.
-Government loan can only be used for its local branch, ie Germany support for LH, Austria for OS, Belgium for SN, etc. (The same is likely true for TUI, so no money from the KfW can be used for TUI Belgium)
-Belgian Government is waiting on Germany's position, a solution has be to found with the governments of Germany, Austria, Swiss and Belgium.

[Flanker3]

I can come back in a dozen years, it will be the same debate again on this forum.

Brussels Airlines is now Eurowings.

So nationalise it if you want but LH needs to lose all its shares and has to forgive any loans and payables that SN has towards it. So essentially this has to be done under insolvency procedures.

Remember that LH did a semi-hostile take-over by paying nothing for the remaining shares. The time for revenge has come.

If you nationalise it, do it properly, build a good, big airline to similar proportions as KLM and with real money. I would give Gustin the leadership too, he has learned the ropes and knows what to do. And he's a patriot, which is what you need for a national carrier.
No DAT/Birdie/SN Brussels Airlines/Brussels Airlines, no half nationalisations.
The staff have gone through too much agony and insecurity across all these iterations of an airline constantly on the verge.
Do it properly, otherwise let it die and let the free market fill the demand. As proven by Air Belgium, VLM MK2 Moldavia, VLM Brussels, Cargo B have proven, there will always be plenty of billionaires trying to become millionaires, so no need for the taxpayer for that.
The taxpayer wants to pay for something he'll be proud of, not something that is always in the news with bad news.