mvg wrote: 04 May 2019, 18:33
@ Phoenixx
"Staff is screwed up by the management" "Employees do not want to cooperate anymore" "No respect" "No end"
We have discussed all this and there will have to be an end. That means find an agreement.
You give interesting examples in which there is no in between:
- one night counts for one day or for two
- parental leave granted according to the law or not granted
- you let people volunteer to work extra shifts or force them
- follow (or not) the rules regarding training, which means respecting seniority
These are probably four very hot topics. If there is no in between, one side will have to give away something: what are Atcos ready to give away and what do they want to keep?
As a neutral spectator, the four hot topics hereabove are straight forward:
- one night counts for one day, as it does in any other job. In your case, the request from management is to make it count for one day for planning purposes only. You get your sleep day and the hours are paid. But the sleep day counts as a day off in the roster for the counting of the days worked in a row. It wasn't like that before, although nothing was ever put on paper. Atco's received it as a present but now that there is an important staff shortage, it's not possible anymore. That does not even change the number of hours worked weekly or monhtly. Anything above 35 hours per week is claimable back (in days off or paid).
Of course you are working much more than that now but lots of trainees are coming. Give them time to check out. Many Atcos are about to retire: many have accepted to stay longer. There might be more who elect to stay than you imagine.
- parental leave granted according to the law: of course an employer has to respect the law. But what should a management do if it is impossible to grant parental leave without putting the business continuity into trouble? What would you do in their place? Let everyone who wishes to work 4/5 days or half time or be at home during 3 or 4 months (parental leave) do so? Even if that means: 1) not enough people to be rostered 2) make those who don't take parental leave work more (direct and unavoidable consequence)
Can't you find a compromise like: those who wait 3 years (till there is more personal) to take their parental leave will get 25% more? Honestly, it's terrible not to get the parental leave as it is requested but it's a suicide to approve it when you are so short of staff...
- forcing people to work: of course this is unacceptable. What is meant by forcing? There are rules that define how a roster can be changed without the approval of an Atco. With how much notice it has to happen. What are those rules? And what is management doing?
- the seniority rule: the big thing! When an airline hires a captain from another company to work straigth away in the left seat, where is the seniority rule and what do other pilots say?
It's true that the current situation is partly due to bad management. It looks like they have some support from "above". Many companies have had to rationalise over the last 20 years: look at airlines. The same is unavoidable for ATC and it has happened in many countries already. It's impossible that Atcos keep their package (it has been described enough) that dates back from maybe 30 years ago.
The end you are referring to means finding an agreement together.
What's about to happen is not exactly together and does not include an end to the unreasonable demands atcos have been subject to for years, on the contrary, it might actually get worse.
And well, we're not willing to give up all four, thats for sure.
That's what "finding the middle ground" is about, last time I checked.
Management wants it a nightshift count for one day, 'only' in planning for now (let's see about this offer before we talk about hours) for the purpose of adding more shifts to an atcos roster.
If you work 35 hours per week as agreed, it is not even necessary to add more shifts to a roster.
Do you seriously believe they will honor this '32 hour week' anywhere in their planning department?
It will be used to count the increasing number of extra hours we do, that is all.
Regarding the parental leave. We could do what you say yes.
However, management has already postponed a request far above the legal limit and then simply answered 'your kid is above 12 now, request unvalid'.
You're working with a law here, and everything not covered by this law is subject to discussion.
DIscussion is not their strongest suit.
Also, good luck putting all situations one might ask parental leave for on hold for 3 years.
What about the atcos who want to take their leave now, when they are entitled to do so?
"No sorry, nobody wanted to wait three years so you are the chinese volunteer to wait now."
They can not give more leave in 3 years as I explained before, this shortage will continue for longer already.
This is simply postponing again and saying 'later, we will fix it later, for now please do more'. We have heard that story far too much and for far too long already to still believe it.
You seem to forget this is a right, covered in a European law, and that management has been putting themselves above it for years, and now they want to grant themselves an exception as they see fit, for as long as they deem it necessary, with no possibility to say no.
How correct do you think they are dealing with other rules and laws?
Bringing me to point 3!
Basically they are changing the roster after it is published without the mututal agreement as required. As soon as it is published, which is 1 month in advance for the whole month, they can not change it by themselves anymore.
As I said, they are commandeering atcos as they see fit now, without any legal ground to do so.
Couriers are delivering registered letters to atcos on a one day notice, informing them their shift has changed, no discussion.
Atcos receive emails from ops management informing them their SAME DAY shift has changed if there is no more time to send a courier, once again, no discussion possible.
Supervisors and chiefs are forced to come in earlier or to stay later to minimize the effect of a shortage or a closure, no discussion.
Standbys are officially informed of their activation long before theirlegal activation window to ensure they fall under the set of rules of an activated standby air traffic controller.
Management does not care about any rules restricting them in their goal.
The seniority rule: not how it works !
There are extremely clear and specific rules about this, and management has once again decided not to follow them. To follow your example: If your airline hires a guy, not even a fully licensed pilot yet, they pay for his type rating as they paid for yours, and with 0 actual experience and the absolute minimum of hours needed to become captain put him in the left seat, when your (countries rules, not even company rules) rules clearly state you are supposed to get added to the FO list first, and then when a spot opens up on the captain list, the FO list is asked who is intrested to become captain, in order of seniority and position on this list (and this is how it is stated in the rules, has happened since you joined the company and has been happening since long before too), and their explanation is "but we kind of need a captain now, so we decided to put him on that list straight away, saves us the step of training you and saves us some time", how happy are you going to be?
Do you dare tell me you won't protest, refer to the rules, to how it is supposed to happen and that there is a giant list of FOs waiting to take the captain training and that because of their own lack of planning your are suddenly passed by in this?
Well, if you answer anything but 'yes okay' I probably won't believe you anyway, just making my point.
I have mentioned this before and I will say it again. We are not against change or giving up a few benefits.
We are against the mentality of the current CEO of not taking no for an answer and enforcing his (full) vision one way or the other. When this man gets what he wants, we will lose nearly all benefits and rights except money. (A right that is subject to managements view of continuity is not a right) And money is being used against us every single time to take away something more already, so hooray for that.
sean1982 wrote: 04 May 2019, 18:44
When a fish says he’s not a fish, does it make him less of a fish?
When you’re in a situation for long enough its quite common to lose touch with reality. Im sure management doesnt need to play the mentioned card because when you honestly present your working conditions to the general public, many of whom also dont have a Good work-life balance and work for a lot less money, They will feel that you’re spoiled anyway. To say it in brexit terms, you can have the cake and eat it at the Same time
Ofcourse management doesn't
need to do this, our salary alone is good enough to make half of Belgium regard us as spoiled and to justify any and all situations for them, but they do it anyway to make the doubters choose a side and to make critical thinkers doubt. Look at the posts when I started responding here if you think my statement is wrong. Misinformation is a very powerful tool.
But thank you for the 2 clever quotes( still wondering if they refer to management or to me, they are just too smart), the quick and unmotivated judgement, answering completely besides the point of the post you quoted 1 sentence out of and ignoring nearly everything I have been extensively explaining for the last 10 pages. Gonna go have some cake, fish love cake.