Can Belgian airlines be successful ?

[Sai]

Flying Group, Jetairfly/TUI fly Belgium, both very profitable and successful...

[sn26567]

Flying Group, Jetairfly/TUI fly Belgium, both very profitable and successful...

Flying Group is not a scheduled airline, and TUIfly Belgium is actually German.

SN Brussels Airlines was actually Belgian at the start, and it was rather successful at the beginning, but the financial crisis of 2008 put a stop on its success, and only the strongest could survive at that time, hence the involvement of Lufthansa which took 45% against an injection of cash. The rest is history...

[Sai]

Flying Group, Jetairfly/TUI fly Belgium, both very profitable and successful...

Flying Group is not a scheduled airline, and TUIfly Belgium is actually German.

I can understand your point of view, but don't completely agree...If you consider it from the point of view of shareholders there hasn't been a Belgian airline for years...
Would you say Austrian airlines or Swiss is German? Or would you say Air Belgium is Chinese? (or another European country that is a main shareholder?)

TUI fly Belgium is a Belgian N.V./S.A., has a Belgian AOC and Belgian OO-registered aircraft, hence I consider it as a Belgian airline...
and for the same reasons I consider Air Belgium as a Belgian airline too
But as I said, it depends on your point of view

[sn26567]

You seem to spread fake news/info all over the place on this website, sometimes...

If Belgian company Jetair had been successful all the way, it would not have been sold to German TUI. Admittedly, TUIfly Belgium (or should we say TUIfly Benelux now?) has a certain degree of independence within the TUI group, but the final say remains in the hands of the owner, i.e. TUI.

[sean1982]

You seem to spread fake news/info all over the place on this website, sometimes...

If Belgian company Jetair had been successful all the way, it would not have been sold to German TUI. Admittedly, TUIfly Belgium (or should we say TUIfly Benelux now?) has a certain degree of independence within the TUI group, but the final say remains in the hands of the owner, i.e. TUI.

See, another « I think I know so I post but I actually don’t know » useless post of this forum.

Jetair was and is still profitable, under another common name with all the airlines and travel agencies of the group. The reason for that is very simple; you can’t be efficient all by yourself in a country that is as small as Belgium. Jetair alone wouldn’t have been able to have the fleet it has now. Modern, efficient, young but way too expensive if bought all by yourself. Do I need to give you an example of another belgian airline that understood that too...?

You obviously don’t have a clue of which decisions are made by TUI BE or not, nor which power they have to do what they want to do alone. You also don’t know what the TUI group is and how it works, apparently. No need to post more crap unless you look for correct information, instead of once again going deeper into your fake info/news.

Aviation24.be seems to be proud to be quoted by the Sun of some French press for articles that are so obvious (oh no airliners cannot do some aerobatics in a typhoon, really!), but you should only be proud if you post accurate info (also no « the runway excursion was caused by ice and rain » with +8°C in Turkey stuff). And frankly, it’s not the case at all at this time... not, at all.

Hear hear

[jan_olieslagers]

Where is the "like" button??? Well said, @737MAX!

And indeed, the true value of forums is in the exchange of facts, or at least of well-supported rumours. Of course everybody are entitled to their very own opinions and tastes and dreams and phantasms, but there are plenty of other channels for all that vapour.

[Passenger]

I'm not sure this topic will generate a lot of comments, but let's see...

The question we have probably asked already, but is worth asking again, is : why don't Belgian airlines succeed to be successful or at least to survive ?
Lack of competent management ?
Lack of competent shareholders ?
Lack of will of the politicians to create an environment favorable to develop aviation, although everybody knows or should know that airlines create a lot of direct and indirect jobs (see the number of direct and indirect jobs lost when Sabena disappeared) ?
Lack of what ?

You have started this topic, so maybe you can clarify what you mean by "a Belgian airline"?

Is a Belgian AOC / OO-reg enough? Ownership: how much "Belgian" must it be? And if you want that it's 51%, then how "Belgian" is an airline with 49% official foreign ownership and non-established ownership in the 51%?

Perhaps we can use the Airfleets.net reference page for "Belgium"?
https://www.airfleets.net/recherche/lis ... elgium.htm

[sn26567]

See, another « I think I know so I post but I actually don’t know » useless post of this forum.

We are always happy to learn, that's what a forum is about. But no need to insult people to teach them what's right or wrong: this is counterproductive.

[jan_olieslagers]

A good point, @Passenger. The one thing that is certainly not relevant is national registry - if we see even good old Aeroflot flying VH- airliners today, and Alitalia and other more on EI-

And yes indeed, Belgium is a small country, yes, and smallish too, on top.

[Passenger]

Where is the "like" button??? Well said, @737MAX! And indeed, the true value of forums is in the exchange of facts, or at least of well-supported rumours. Of course everybody are entitled to their very own opinions and tastes and dreams and phantasms, but there are plenty of other channels for all that vapour.

There is no need for a "like button" for this ugly stuff:

You obviously don’t have a clue of which decisions are made by TUI BE or not, nor which power they have to do what they want to do alone. You also don’t know what the TUI group is and how it works, apparently. No need to post more crap unless you look for correct information, instead of once again going deeper into your fake info/news.

[Conti764]

Where is the "like" button??? Well said, @737MAX!

And indeed, the true value of forums is in the exchange of facts, or at least of well-supported rumours. Of course everybody are entitled to their very own opinions and tastes and dreams and phantasms, but there are plenty of other channels for all that vapour.

Really? Some weeks ago you were nagging about a post of mine towards Passenger and now you are supporting an offensive and borderline insulting post? Way to go...

On topic, I believe a Belgian airline within its segment can be succesful but not on its own... A good example is indeed Tuifly Belgium within the Tui Group, a bad example is SN within the LH Group... The first received and continues receiving efficient, new equipment and as such is allowed by its parenting company to florish and grow. The latter is stepmotherly treated by its parent group, is not allowed to grow and is set to disappear.

[sn26567]

There is nothing insulting in my post.

All it meant is simple; there is no room for wrong information. Everyone is welcome to have an opinion, we are all allowed to say if we agree or not; but false information is not OK. Whether it comes from « moderators » or a new joiner makes no difference.

If something is wrong in my post, please let me know what, for the benefit of all our readers, starting with me. That would be a positive and constructive attitude.

A first question that comes to mind: do we still speak about TUI fly Belgium, or has it become TUI fly Benelux now?

[Conti764]

Isn't it just equipment that can be deployed elsewhere within the Tuifly group? So no Tuifly Benelux, Just Tuifly Belgium and Tuifly Holland...?

[Poiu]

SN Brussels Airlines was actually Belgian at the start, and it was rather successful at the beginning, but the financial crisis of 2008 put a stop on its success

You have a short memory, Andre!
SNBA (DAT) “bought” a lot of Sabena assets for 1€ the day before the bankruptcy, eg LHR slots and some profitable fuel hedging contracts, who were later sold to stay alive.
A bridge loan for Sabena was transferred to SNBA and never paid back (Alitalia scenario)
The aircrew pension fund was used to fill to pockets of SNBA
....

[b720]

I believe that the local market is low yielding. Can not compare to the German or swiss markets when it comes to business travel. Another problem is the size of the country. CDG, DUS, AMS, even LHR etc are all very close giving the local market lots of Options. Even attracting connecting pax a local airline must compete with the giants around us. Maybe those are some of the reasons a local airline can not really be profitable Without being part of a global alliance.. sabena never made money, and that was way before Ryanair .. maybe it is the curse of our “central” location?

[PttU]

It's already a rather small market, and with EIN, DUS,... close enough to nibble some more off of that market.

Furthermore: Belgium is too small for regional/national traffic, all flights are to other countries so you have to compete with foreign airlines, and when you're competing on routes to countries with lower costs (even within Europe) it's hard to compete on a price-level.

But why is the question specifically about Belgian airlines? Don't airlines struggle all over Europe and all over the world? Almost every month there's news about a new airline being born, almost every month there's news about an airline taken over or going bankrupt. In the end, there aren't that many airlines, especially not when you're limiting to airlines with scheduled passenger services.
When you look at bigger countries: how many Dutch/French/German/... airlines are successful?

[convair]

It's already a rather small market, and with EIN, DUS,... close enough to nibble some more off of that market.
Furthermore: Belgium is too small for regional/national traffic, all flights are to other countries so you have to compete with foreign airlines, and when you're competing on routes to countries with lower costs (even within Europe) it's hard to compete on a price-level.

I think there is a market for an airline based in BRU; look at the growth of SN in the last few years! Yes, it still is in the red, but not that much and LH hasn't done much to help it. On the contrary, it has put a brake on some of its most promising expansion projects and is siphoning pax to its German and Swiss hubs.
A network of code-share agreements is necessary to maintain a hub; this could have been done without selling-off the company without keeping some minority shareholding granting a certain number of veto rights on the main decisions. For that, you would have needed belgian entrepreneurs with vision and guts. These were not available.

But why is the question specifically about Belgian airlines? Don't airlines struggle all over Europe and all over the world? Almost every month there's news about a new airline being born, almost every month there's news about an airline taken over or going bankrupt. In the end, there aren't that many airlines, especially not when you're limiting to airlines with scheduled passenger services.
When you look at bigger countries: how many Dutch/French/German/... airlines are successful?

True. The main reason is that the EU decided to forbid state aids to EU airlines. Rightly so imho. But they forgot to extend that prohibition to non-EU airlines operating to/from EU territory, thus making it difficult, or even impossible, for EU airlines to compete with the state-owned or subsidized foreign ones.

[Flanker3]

Yes it can be succesful but you need a good plan.
Belgium is an outbound leisure market primarily. This is why FR and TUI Belgium are doing well.
In terms of business flying, Belgium has a problem because the business cycle is not stable like in other major big cities. There is demand but not all the time.
Everybody arrives on Mondays and leaves on Thursday/Fridays. The outbound business pattern is similar.

Then there is the demand and offer. Belgium has the advantage of having a high population density with a decent income. The disadvantage is that everybody and their mother want to take advantage of it.

I think that the keyword is marketing.
Smart, targeted and efficient marketing can make the difference between who wins and who loses.
This is where the winners are winning and the losers are losing.
Belgians like to talk and the key is to get them to talk about your airline.
This is where Air Belgium have failed so far and have to operate flights for others who market themselves well. However AB are good at marketing themselves to those ACMI customers, that's why they are getting business.
This is where New VLM have failed completely.
People go to London because other people talk about London. Nobody talks about Tashkent so nobody goes there...

I think that SN could do much better than they are now.
They have a huge untapped market that is flying from 50 km South and making money.
They need to be more efficient at marketing themselves and they need to adapt their yield management from a unit profit method to a customer perceived value method that Ryanair uses. Lower unit margins can be compensated by higher volume and higher perceived value.
They also need to look at the routes FR is operating from Crl, many of which are lower frequency. This works well for leisure.

[convair]

People go to London because other people talk about London. Nobody talks about Tashkent so nobody goes there...

People go to London, because there is business and things to do/see in London and the trip is not very long. [Besides, they are curious to meet those weird(ish) british people. ] Tashkent has a spectacular side but it's quite far, e.g. for a week-end trip.

I think that SN could do much better than they are now.
They have a huge untapped market that is flying from 50 km South and making money.
They need to be more efficient at marketing themselves and they need to adapt their yield management from a unit profit method to a customer perceived value method that Ryanair uses. Lower unit margins can be compensated by higher volume and higher perceived value.
They also need to look at the routes FR is operating from Crl, many of which are lower frequency. This works well for leisure.

That is exactly what SN has started to do by overtaking the Thomas Cook flights: it keeps flying for leisure during the week-end the planes that have carried mostly business pax during the week. And I agree they should increase the leisure part so that they can acquire more planes that will fly to additional business/short trip tourism destinations (Helsinki, Beirut, Cairo, Sofia, Leipzig, Dresden, Newcastle, Norwich, West Midlands...) during the week.