Modifications to Bertje's dispersion plan

killerwhale65 · Post by **killerwhale65** » 27 Feb 2004, 18:21

just heard on the news: Bertje Blijtsmoel ("crying face") is gonna make some changes to his dispertionplan. He's gonna change the rules regarding to wind-speed. Now 25knots of crosswind was allowed, and he would lower it to 15knots.

Post by **luchtzak** » 27 Feb 2004, 18:27

Isn't that what the pilots always asked for ?

killerwhale65 · Post by **killerwhale65** » 27 Feb 2004, 20:16

yup looks like they (and we) won again! Yihaaaaa!!

:dance: Bertje op ze bakkes :dance:

Avro · Post by **Avro** » 27 Feb 2004, 20:27

Well, I would still wait till the plan is really effective.
I'm very curious to see the results. They told on TV (VRT) this evening, that they will use all runways configurations on a 7day basis (if the weather conditions are ok)

Well for spotting this could mean more 02 landings

But will they change those configurations during the day or only at night.

Could be kind of risky if you ask me to drastically switch configs all couple of hours

Greetz
Chris
8)

vliegtuigfreak · Post by **vliegtuigfreak** » 27 Feb 2004, 20:31

Yesterday 5 members of "GROEN" have gived a petition on the parlements with signatures of all the people that is living around the airport; they want to CANCEL the night-flights! The parlement rejected the signatures and dont want to accept them. They said its impossible to cancel the night flights. (Better 100 awake people than 1000's of fired people). Now all the Green members of whole Europe are giving a petiton to the European Parlement for canceling the night flights. I'm sure they would reject it bud i will do this to the green people : :pang:
I know this is

fftopic: but i want to give my opinion about the green people!!

Greetingzz
Sonny

Post by **luchtzak** » 27 Feb 2004, 21:01

I watched the news too with much attention, they want to use the Brussels Airport runways as much as possible in different directions. I am aware of a few runway-configurations:

https://www.aviation24.be/article50.html

- 25L for landings - 25R for take-offs (Westerly winds)
- 02 for landings - 07R for take-offs and occasionally 07L for cargo when no landings on 02 (for Northerly winds)
- 20 for landing - 25R for take-offs (Southerly winds)

These 3 are the most common but I cannot imagine that planes will take-off at runway 07L whilst aircrafts are landing on 25L

It's a wait-and-see for this I guess...

greetz,

Bart
:rock:

LX-LGX · Post by **LX-LGX** » 28 Feb 2004, 00:38

Has anyone seen our honourable minister's date of birth? 11/9/1959. Nine Eleven indeed...

The report of the French expert is online at http://www.mobilit.fgov.be/Fr/index-fr.htm (click on air - avis généraux - survol de BRU)

In Dutch: http://www.mobilit.fgov.be/nl/index-nl.htm (klik op lucht - aeronews - overvliegen van ...)

Don't expect too much from the report. Actually, it's rather funny: our international expert says we have 1 chance on 32,000,000,000 to become involved in a plane crash if we're 10 kms away from the runway.

Wonder if somebody can find out how much they (= we) paid the expert for his report. De minister vertelt het niet in zijn online dagboek.

Post by **sn26567** » 02 Mar 2004, 13:51

Here are the details of the latest plan applicable after 18 March (that will be voided by the Council of State anyway) :

General takeoff from 25R; but 02 if tail wind > 8 knots (currently 12 knots since June 2003) or side wind > 15 knots. After takeoff, dispersion will ensure that not always the same inhabitants are incommodated.

If all runways can be used for takeoff, there will never be landings on 20, 07R et 07L.

- During the day, on working days, landings on 25R et 25L and takeoff on 25R.

- During the night, landing on 25R and 25L and takeoff on 25R and 20.

- During weekends, one Saturday out of two, landing on 02

- Sunday until 17:00 takeoff on 20.

- Nights of Monday, Wednesday, Friday takeoff on 20 until 03:00 and 02 or 07 from 03:00 to 06:00.

Flybe · Post by **Flybe** » 18 Apr 2004, 23:55

Just saw some program at "Kanaal 3" (regional tv) about the airport of Brussels. There a guy that is works for security of the planes (don't know his exact function) says that a study has pointed out that the new dispersion plan makes everything actually... safer.

I'm absolutely not an expert at this, but indeed, if i think of the sometimes proposed concentration plan (concentrating all the flights in one or a few routes and then making sure that the houses underneath those routes are soundproof) i guess that indeed it wouldn't be safer. With heavy crosswinds, you still would need to change runways (just like in this plan), so then you would fly over areas where houses aren't isolated.

Just my 2 cents though...

Greets,

Pieter

pilatus · Post by **pilatus** » 19 Apr 2004, 09:29

Yes but then it is occasional that they will pass over the not isolated houses. Still think it is better to concentrate....

Post by **sn26567** » 19 Apr 2004, 09:57

At the end of 2002, the government had plans ready to concentrate all the flights in the Noordrand and pay for insulation of all the houses (20,000 inhabitants).

But Bert Anciaux's brother, a lawyer living there, didn't agree. He complained, together with a group of other inhabitants of that area. The Court of Appeals said that the flights had to be eaqually dispersed over ALL areas surrounding the airport, And that's when the fun began

Now at least 200,000 inhabitants have noise problems, and the cost of insulationg all of them becomes unbearable.

The decision of the Court of Appeals has now been repelled, but the dispersion plan remains

Could our government please become reasonable again and decide to concentrate the flights, as is done in most airports in the world?

Oh, very bad! I start dreaming....

Flybe · Post by **Flybe** » 19 Apr 2004, 14:04

I made a mistake in my last post here. This morning i found out that it wasn't on "Kanaal 3", but on "Ring tv". My apologies

Greets,

Pieter

killerwhale65 · Post by **killerwhale65** » 19 Apr 2004, 17:19

Just read on VRTnews.net:

Now that the final part of the dispertion plan is active, the amount of complaints is again as high as before the dispertion plan, that started a month ago.

Another reason to have a dispersion plan ...

OO-VEX · Post by **OO-VEX** » 19 Apr 2004, 17:23

Flybe wrote:I made a mistake in my last post here. This morning i found out that it wasn't on "Kanaal 3", but on "Ring tv".

I saw that program too on "Ring TV", it was called "Zone Zaventem". It was the first out of 4 episodes and the next 3 Sundays the other episodes will be broadcasted.

OO-VEX

Avro · Post by **Avro** » 19 Apr 2004, 18:43

OO-VEX wrote:
Flybe wrote:I made a mistake in my last post here. This morning i found out that it wasn't on "Kanaal 3", but on "Ring tv".
I saw that program too on "Ring TV", it was called "Zone Zaventem". It was the first out of 4 episodes and the next 3 Sundays the other episodes will be broadcasted.

OO-VEX

Will all those episodes deal about the noise issue or not ?

Greetz
Chris

OO-VEX · Post by **OO-VEX** » 19 Apr 2004, 19:42

Avro wrote:
OO-VEX wrote:
Flybe wrote:I made a mistake in my last post here. This morning i found out that it wasn't on "Kanaal 3", but on "Ring tv".
I saw that program too on "Ring TV", it was called "Zone Zaventem". It was the first out of 4 episodes and the next 3 Sundays the other episodes will be broadcasted.

OO-VEX
Will all those episodes deal about the noise issue or not ?

Greetz
Chris

I don't think so Chris,

it is a program about BRU airport. Yesterday they talked about safety & security, new ATC tower,... and also a bit about the dispersion plan.

OO-VEX

Avro · Post by **Avro** » 19 Apr 2004, 20:35

Allright thx

dolfke · Post by **dolfke** » 19 Apr 2004, 22:35

Hello guys,

Just to tell you that Bertje is driving us crazy in the cockpit too.
Before all this mess started you could plan your approach and you knew about how much fuel and time you needed, since all these changes you never know which runway you can expect. As long as there's the 25l&r no extra precautions are needed when you return to brussels as you almost never have any delays. But now for a fart from the wrong direction they change the runways. Mostly this means HUGE delays. If it's 20 or 02 in use you just know you'll do a sightseeing tour of belgium (and I know I said belgium and not only brussels). You easily loose 15+ minutes, very nice when you didn't really count on it and you're getting low on fuel (for our avro's this comes down to about 500kg extra fuel needed: count out the costs). Yesterday it was runway 20 in use and 25r for take-off. We had to reduce speed when still between luxemburg and liege from our normal descent speed of 290kts to 250kts and once over liege down to 210 kts, then they send us all the way out so we got a 30NM final (about 55km) at speed 180kts (suffice to say it took a VERY long time). As we still had to depart for a flight afterward (and the plane we had to take over was of course too late) we had the time to go take a look inside the pier A: about 80-90% of all the flights that still had to leave had a delay (and not just 5-10 min, I'm talking 30-50 min).We really thanked Bertje a lot when we finally arrived at our hotel 1h30 too late (and way past midnight) dead tired.
I really would like the real cost of that idiots' stupid ideas to the airlines.

Just my 2 cents worth.

Dolf

Post by **sn26567** » 20 Apr 2004, 09:10

Dolfke,

Thanks for insider view. The airlines should sue Anciaux for the huge additional costs. But in these modern days, stupidity does not kill anymore. Pity!

Not only the airlines pay more, but the Belgian taxpayer, you and me, will also contribute for the phonic insulation of 200,000 houses instead of 20,000!

arthurv · Post by **arthurv** » 20 Apr 2004, 09:19

Note that the reason why a 'fart from the wrong direction' overrides Bert's plan's default runway assigment is,as far as I know, Biac & the pilots associations, not Bert.

I think that, knowing that probably 75% of the winds at EBBR are always from the 220-280 degrees range, Biac 'hoped' that by making the wind restrictions more severe, they would easier be able to fallback on biac's preferred 25L/25R configuration, whatever Bert's plan says... But of course, the drawback is that when there's a 'fart from the south-southeast' like yesterday, the wind restrictions that biac imposed themselves force them to go for the 20 again...

something else (*EDIT* CORRECTED LINK )
I do have internet links that report the weather (METAR) information in Brussels (eg. METAR reports for the latest 8 hours: http://www.sca.uqam.ca/cgi-bin/get_sao_ ... BBR&DELT=8) on which runway assigments are based, but I have never found the current runway assignments themselves.
Does anyone know of an online (internet) way to find out the current runway assigments in use in EBBR (other than tune in to the Brussels Arrival ATIS information with a scanner) ? Or is there anyone who could make a realaudo stream of Brussels arrival information

? Thought probably illegal, that would be great...[/list]