Near-miss between SWISS A320 and ULM at Brussels Airport

killerwhale65 · Post by **killerwhale65** » 14 Apr 2004, 15:48

guys,

based on facts, assumptions and my (little) knowledge of real aviation procedures, i came to the following:

The plane was an Airbus A320, at 2600 feet (800m) descending for 2000ft (600m). Based on his altitude and the fact that he was on the approach freqency (and not yet on the tower freqency), i can conclude that he was just around the proces of intercepting the ILS for runway 02 (or just a little bit before or after that).
Speeds at that moment for an A320 are around 170-190kts (315-350 km/h).

Giving the fact that it was very busy at that time for landings, and that there was only one active landing runway (instead of 2 normally), speeds and positions may differ from my conclusions.

Interception of the ILS happens at around 10 nm (18 km) from the treshold of runway 02. This lead me to the following charts:

visual:

and IFR:

with in blue the path of the plane, and red the area where the incident most likely occured.

I hope i did this kinda well, what would mean that my knowledge of real aviation precedures is very good

. Anyway enjoy!

Post by **sn26567** » 14 Apr 2004, 16:17

Excellent research, killerwhale!

So it happened at maximum 5 km from where I live...

Did I not say in a previous post that I regularly saw ULMs in my area? The ULM than likely came from the huge ULModrome of Baisy-Thy, in the bottom of your map.

Avro · Post by **Avro** » 14 Apr 2004, 16:33

Thx for the great maps Killerwhale.

sn26567 wrote: Did I not say in a previous post that I regularly saw ULMs in my area? The ULM than likely came from the huge ULModrome of Baisy-Thy, in the bottom of your map.

And look what I found on the site of Baisy-Thy :

http://www.ulm.be/fr/planes/aircreation ... efault.htm Isn't that a RED and YELLLOW wing ???

Greetz
Chris
8)

Post by **luchtzak** » 14 Apr 2004, 16:35

Avro wrote:And look what I found on the site of Baisy-Thy :

http://www.ulm.be/fr/planes/aircreation ... efault.htm Isn't that a RED and YELLLOW wing ???

Busted!!

Post by **sn26567** » 14 Apr 2004, 16:35

... or this one:

Post by **luchtzak** » 14 Apr 2004, 16:38

Great research Matthias!

On VRT teletekst the accident happened near Céroux-Mousty, is that close to Genval?

greetings,

Bart
:rock:

Avro · Post by **Avro** » 14 Apr 2004, 16:40

luchtzak wrote:Great research Matthias!

On VRT teletekst the accident happened near Céroux-Mousty, is that close to Genval?

greetings,

Bart
:rock:

Yes it is Bart.

Just see on the bottom of the map the end of the blue line. It's just on the right.

Post by **sn26567** » 14 Apr 2004, 16:44

luchtzak wrote:On VRT teletekst the accident happened near Céroux-Mousty, is that close to Genval?

It's even closer to Baisy-Thy than Genval !

killerwhale65 · Post by **killerwhale65** » 14 Apr 2004, 16:49

aha, i wasnt too far off after all

SAB-OM · Post by **SAB-OM** » 14 Apr 2004, 20:05

pilatus,

i hope it wasn't you at Schaffen climbing above FL50 to FL130 and forgot to call in on brussels 128.2 on Sunday

(25's active - several inbound diverts)

Zorba · Post by **Zorba** » 14 Apr 2004, 21:17

Very nice research you did there my friend

Do you remember the ATC-er his/her voice? Must be VERY stressful for both pilot and ATC-er.

I hope this will not happend again too much!

Regards,
Rutger

SkyJet · Post by **SkyJet** » 14 Apr 2004, 22:15

Situational Awereness
That's what happened...
It occurs very often with Private Pilots, but also with Commercial Pilots!
Not knowing where exactly you are, has led to many (fatal) accidents, planes crashing against hillsides or rising ground...
Even aircraft equipped with (E)GPWS aren't always fail-safe... (the planes are, but are the crew ?)

Kantoor007 · Post by **Kantoor007** » 14 Apr 2004, 22:19

ULM they say, but maybe it was an UFO?

MR · Post by MR » 14 Apr 2004, 22:34

It seems the only fault of the ULM pilot was he flew too high, 2400 ft instead of the allowed 1500 ft. (BXL TMA south). I passed there often at 1400 ft. and never an airliner so close.

rover · Post by **rover** » 15 Apr 2004, 11:47

The ULM near miss happened near Céry-Gistoux. The ULM had apparently left EBCI TMA where he was to stay below 2.500 ft and strayed about 1 mile into EBBR TMA where he was to stay below 1.500 ft. I wonder why that A320 was fktyun so low there... even on an ILS approach to rwy 02 he should have been much higher and all the hullabaloo about a 20 ft near miss seems a bit exagerated...

killerwhale65 · Post by **killerwhale65** » 15 Apr 2004, 13:15

Airbus_fan wrote:Very nice research you did there my friend

Do you remember the ATC-er his/her voice? Must be VERY stressful for both pilot and ATC-er.

I hope this will not happend again too much!

Regards,
Rutger

Thank you.

Euhm, about the ATC-er voice ... i don't know what you are talking about?

No i can only receive pilots, not atc.

killerwhale65 · Post by **killerwhale65** » 15 Apr 2004, 13:20

rover wrote:The ULM near miss happened near Céry-Gistoux. The ULM had apparently left EBCI TMA where he was to stay below 2.500 ft and strayed about 1 mile into EBBR TMA where he was to stay below 1.500 ft. I wonder why that A320 was fktyun so low there... even on an ILS approach to rwy 02 he should have been much higher and all the hullabaloo about a 20 ft near miss seems a bit exagerated...

1500 ft ... he did flew at 2600 ft cause thats where the incident happened.

exagerated ... i don't know maybe you are a stunt pilot or something but when you are on an approach in an AIrbus you really dont like another plane, no matter hwo small, at only 20 meter above you.

A320 flying so low there ... First of all 2600 ft is not so low at that place. And if he was at that altitude then it is because ATC told him to. I don't know if mister stuntpilot here realises what just NOT has happened luckily

Post by **sn26567** » 15 Apr 2004, 16:30

Thanks for your input, rover, and welcome to Luchtzak.

rover wrote:The ULM near miss happened near Céry-Gistoux.

I guess you mean Céroux-Mousty or Chaumont-Gistoux. VRT opted for the first city...

Is there any way to measure exactly the closest distance between the two 'planes' ?

killerwhale65 · Post by **killerwhale65** » 15 Apr 2004, 17:05

i think the only way will be to look at the data recorded by the black boxes. If you want to know it exactly.

Post by **luchtzak** » 15 Apr 2004, 17:11

killerwhale65 wrote:i think the only way will be to look at the data recorded by the black boxes. If you want to know it exactly.

I thought that an ULM doesn't have a black box