Brussels Airlines' fleet renewal

[nordikcam]

What I heard is that the fleet should consist in 16 long haul aircraft by 2018... So the A340 of Lufti makes sense if Brussels Airlines want to integrate 6 new aircraft in 2 years of time

By the way the A340-300 are from 1993/94 while the A340-600 are from 2006/07

If the plan is to have 16 planes in the fleet, they will have to come from somewhere ... and will SN have the ability to organize so quickly ( 2 years ) such a fleet increase ... to go where ?

Africa of course, to go from "specialist" to "leader" to consolidate as well the current network and maybe adding a new route to north america or even india... but I must say that I was surprised when I heard this info. I'm happy that Brussels Airlines is growing but 6 plane in two year is maybe too much

Yes Africa of course ! For sure ! But do you think it could be possible to open in two years a lot of dots on the map where SN is unknow...Yeap Lagos Libreville...but after ? South Africa ??? Tanzania ?? Back to Kenya ?? Mali ?? Mauritania ?? Sabena have been to Nouakchott, Dar-es-Salaam, Jo'burg, Bamako...Brazza ??

[Matthias]

I recently contacted SN and they said a lot of interesting things:
- SN will fly BMA till the very end with the RJ100, no type has been decided to fly there after the phase out.
- there are no plans to phase out the dash Q400's and the ERJ. No decision has been taken to phase them out or to replace them with the SSJ.
- the decision about the A330 will be decided soon.
- the replacement of the A330's will start mid 2018 till mid 2019.

[sean1982]

Every airline in the world is getting rid or trying to get rid of their A340's (with the exception of some niche markets) .... enough said

You could say the same about British Airways, while everyone is offloading their 747s (which are even more fuel inefficient than A340s), they have recently announced that they will keep the 747 longer in the fleet than earlier planned, despite having a lot of 787 and A350 on order.

yeah, I knew this was coming

First of all, how does BA fit into this topic?

Secondly, difference is, the replacements HAVE been ordered, factory new A350's and a flexible plan to accelerate the B747 retirement if they would be no longer financially viable due to rising oil prices. Oh, and they are in full ownership and paid for as well. Apples and pears much?

[DeltaWiskey]

Yes, I know that makes sense. Do you know that you just contradicted yourself big time, do you? All in just one post. That was the only point I wanted to make.

[sean1982]

Yes, I know that makes sense. Do you know that you just contradicted yourself big time, do you? All in just one post. That was the only point I wanted to make.

No I didn't, it's called wishful reading. My original point was and is: replacing an old airplane with another old less fuel efficient airplane makes no sense. Point

And really, with LH groups bargaining power at Airbus a better solution can be found, new-ish A330's or even A330 NEO if they are serious of making SN their Africa specialist.

[nordikcam]

I recently contacted SN and they said a lot of interesting things:
- SN will fly BMA till the very end with the RJ100, no type has been decided to fly there after the phase out.
- there are no plans to phase out the dash Q400's and the ERJ. No decision has been taken to phase them out or to replace them with the SSJ.
- the decision about the A330 will be decided soon.
- the replacement of the A330's will start mid 2018 till mid 2019.

Hummm we hurry slowly @ SN. No "new type" decided...no "plan", no "decision" has been taken...It's what I'm reading...We are in march 17...I guess no new dot on African or US map before 3 years ??
It's a little bit sad...

[DeltaWiskey]

I want to make this clear first before we get off topic: SN is not replacing their A330s with A340s. Debating this would be a wrong assumption in the first place.

sean1982, please reread your own words. There is no replace/replacing in your first message, hence my reference to British Airways. If it was supposed to be (like you said in your last message), no one over said that SN will be replacing its ageing fleet of A330s with A340s.

[sean1982]

I want to make this clear first before we get off topic: SN is not replacing their A330s with A340s. Debating this would be a wrong assumption in the first place.

sean1982, please reread your own words. There is no replace/replacing in your first message, hence my reference to British Airways. If it was supposed to be (like you said in your last message), no one over said that SN will be replacing its ageing fleet of A330s with A340s.

I didnt say that

It seems that the some LH A340's (based in Munich) will replace the oldest A330's from SN.

[DeltaWiskey]

Then boeing767pilot is wrong. It is as simple as that. Case closed.

[convair]

Every airline in the world is getting rid or trying to get rid of their A340's (with the exception of some niche markets) .... enough said

You could say the same about British Airways, while everyone is offloading their 747s (which are even more fuel inefficient than A340s), they have recently announced that they will keep the 747 longer in the fleet than earlier planned, despite having a lot of 787 and A350 on order.

yeah, I knew this was coming

First of all, how does BA fit into this topic?

With the first words of your post: "Every airline in the world..."

Secondly, difference is, the replacements HAVE been ordered, factory new A350's and a flexible plan to accelerate the B747 retirement if they would be no longer financially viable due to rising oil prices. Oh, and they are in full ownership and paid for as well. Apples and pears much?

The replacements have been already ordered because it was needed due to BA's policy to buy factory new planes, Which is very nice indeed. However, they now need to postpone the phase-out of their old 747s; delay in delivery or not enough factory new planes ordered?

And really, with LH groups bargaining power at Airbus a better solution can be found, new-ish A330's or even A330 NEO if they are serious of making SN their Africa specialist.

Airlines have different policies regarding the procurement of their aircraft, factory new or second-hand, owned or leased and these policies change over the years and are adapted to the circumstances. The BA (or IAG group) way is fully respectable; so are other practices.

I would love to see LH order factory new planes for SN. However, SN has proved that it is possible to survive and even grow in difficult times, using old and leased planes. Personnally, I think that deserves respect rather than to be snubbed at.

[sean1982]

Secondly, difference is, the replacements HAVE been ordered, factory new A350's and a flexible plan to accelerate the B747 retirement if they would be no longer financially viable due to rising oil prices. Oh, and they are in full ownership and paid for as well. Apples and pears much?

The replacements have been already ordered because it was needed due to BA's policy to buy factory new planes, Which is very nice indeed. However, they now need to postpone the phase-out of their old 747s; delay in delivery or not enough factory new planes ordered?

Mostly more growth than expected and also development of a complete new business class seat and delays in delivery.

And really, with LH groups bargaining power at Airbus a better solution can be found, new-ish A330's or even A330 NEO if they are serious of making SN their Africa specialist.

Airlines have different policies regarding the procurement of their aircraft, factory new or second-hand, owned or leased and these policies change over the years and are adapted to the circumstances. The BA (or IAG group) way is fully respectable; so are other practices.

I would love to see LH order factory new planes for SN. However, SN has proved that it is possible to survive and even grow in difficult times, using old and leased planes. Personnally, I think that deserves respect rather than to be snubbed at.

With all respect, SN's use of old aircraft is not because they want to, but because they need to. You would have expected after being part of a large group with huge bargaining powers another strategy could be developed than replacing with old airplanes again, not nescessarily factory new, but new-ish.

[Passenger]

With all respect, SN's use of old aircraft is not because they want to, but because they need to. You would have expected after being part of a large group with huge bargaining powers another strategy could be developed than replacing with old airplanes again, not nescessarily factory new, but new-ish.

Compared to your employer British Airways, Brussels Airlines isn't doing that bad, specially not because they have only recently been bought by Lufthansa.

Brussels Airlines :
total fleet average age 14.9
A330 (9) : average age 19.5

British Airways :
total fleet average age 12.5
B747 (37) : average age 20.6
B767 (7) : average age 22.1
B777 (58) : average age 14.6

Sure, your 787's and 380's are younger then your 747's and 767's. Luckily, because otherwise the fleet age from your employer would be higher then the one from Brussels Airlines.

http://www.airfleets.net/ageflotte/Brit ... irways.htm
http://www.airfleets.net/ageflotte/Brus ... rlines.htm

[lumumba]

With all respect, SN's use of old aircraft is not because they want to, but because they need to. You would have expected after being part of a large group with huge bargaining powers another strategy could be developed than replacing with old airplanes again, not nescessarily factory new, but new-ish.

Compared to your employer British Airways, Brussels Airlines isn't doing that bad, specially not because they have only recently been bought by Lufthansa.

Brussels Airlines :
total fleet average age 14.9
A330 (9) : average age 19.5

British Airways :
total fleet average age 12.5
B747 (37) : average age 20.6
B767 (7) : average age 22.1
B777 (58) : average age 14.6

Sure, your 787's and 380's are younger then your 747's and 767's. Luckily, because otherwise the fleet age from your employer would be higher then the one from Brussels Airlines.

http://www.airfleets.net/ageflotte/Brit ... irways.htm
http://www.airfleets.net/ageflotte/Brus ... rlines.htm

Sean can we stop fighting for once it was just a way to compare that it's not always bad to use older or used planes like the 747 of BA and the 340 of LH .....

[sean1982]

With all respect, SN's use of old aircraft is not because they want to, but because they need to. You would have expected after being part of a large group with huge bargaining powers another strategy could be developed than replacing with old airplanes again, not nescessarily factory new, but new-ish.

Compared to your employer British Airways, Brussels Airlines isn't doing that bad, specially not because they have only recently been bought by Lufthansa.

Brussels Airlines :
total fleet average age 14.9
A330 (9) : average age 19.5

British Airways :
total fleet average age 12.5
B747 (37) : average age 20.6
B767 (7) : average age 22.1
B777 (58) : average age 14.6

Sure, your 787's and 380's are younger then your 747's and 767's. Luckily, because otherwise the fleet age from your employer would be higher then the one from Brussels Airlines.

http://www.airfleets.net/ageflotte/Brit ... irways.htm
http://www.airfleets.net/ageflotte/Brus ... rlines.htm

Not that that has anything to do with this topic, but shall we compare factory new deliveries in the last lets say ... 5 years?

Play the ball please

Lumumba, I'm not fighting anyone, seems the fanboys have got their knickers in a twist ..... again.

[crew1990]

There were a time, we had regularly fight Brussels Airlines vs Ryanair, now we have Brussels Airlines vs British Airways, wouldn't be the time to stop those childish behavior?

[RoMax]

With all respect, SN's use of old aircraft is not because they want to, but because they need to. You would have expected after being part of a large group with huge bargaining powers another strategy could be developed than replacing with old airplanes again, not nescessarily factory new, but new-ish.

And why would it be a strategy in itself to have new(-ish) aircraft? Worldwide several very successful airlines have a tendency of adding 2nd hand aircraft, often very cheap (in lease/purchase) old ones, operating them in an extremely profitable way for a number of years before replacing them again.
Have a look at Swiss and Austrian as other, older, LH daughters. Swiss added two old A343's in late 2007/early 2008 ('95/'96 vintage), in 2014 OS did the same with a '98 vintage 777-200ER.
Most of Swiss' A340's are 'relatively new' (2003-2004) yet outdated technology, but still they are going to refurbish 5 of them (I believe this year or in 2008) with new cabins to keep them even longer in the fleet.

Keep in mind this decision is only about the replacement of 7 of the oldest A330's which are all end of lease between the end of 2018 and the end of 2019. The other A330's will reach their EOL in the first half of the 2020's, meaning that relatively soon there will be a second round of long-haul fleet replacement. LH Group has still some major decisions to make in terms of long haul fleet replacement (both for themselves and for Swiss/Austrian/Eurowings) and it doesn't seem these have been made yet. But for those 7 aircraft at SN, a decision has to be made now to be prepared for the start of the fleet roll-over next year.

[sean1982]

With all respect, SN's use of old aircraft is not because they want to, but because they need to. You would have expected after being part of a large group with huge bargaining powers another strategy could be developed than replacing with old airplanes again, not nescessarily factory new, but new-ish.

And why would it be a strategy in itself to have new(-ish) aircraft? Worldwide several very successful airlines have a tendency of adding 2nd hand aircraft, often very cheap (in lease/purchase) old ones, operating them in an extremely profitable way for a number of years before replacing them again.
Have a look at Swiss and Austrian as other, older, LH daughters. Swiss added two old A343's in late 2007/early 2008 ('95/'96 vintage), in 2014 OS did the same with a '98 vintage 777-200ER.
Most of Swiss' A340's are 'relatively new' (2003-2004) yet outdated technology, but still they are going to refurbish 5 of them (I believe this year or in 2008) with new cabins to keep them even longer in the fleet.

Keep in mind this decision is only about the replacement of 7 of the oldest A330's which are all end of lease between the end of 2018 and the end of 2019. The other A330's will reach their EOL in the first half of the 2020's, meaning that relatively soon there will be a second round of long-haul fleet replacement. LH Group has still some major decisions to make in terms of long haul fleet replacement (both for themselves and for Swiss/Austrian/Eurowings) and it doesn't seem these have been made yet. But for those 7 aircraft at SN, a decision has to be made now to be prepared for the start of the fleet roll-over next year.

It could indeed be a quick temporary solution given the fact that the decisions to replace the oldest A330's has been put off for way to long, as they are now very close to EOL and there was no money to replace them, however Swiss is also a good example of how the LHG has a fleet change over strategy with 7 B773's, Bombardier's and most of their A330's delivered in the last 7 years. Let's hope that when the second round of LH replacements has to come around a more durable solution will be found.

[RoMax]

It could indeed be a quick temporary solution given the fact that the decisions to replace the oldest A330's has been put off for way to long, as they are now very close to EOL and there was no money to replace them, however Swiss is also a good example of how the LHG has a fleet change over strategy with 7 B773's, Bombardier's and most of their A330's delivered in the last 7 years. Let's hope that when the second round of LH replacements has to come around a more durable solution will be found.

And yet 'even LX' will keep 5 relatively outdated A343's in their fleet for a significant number of additional years, even investing in a full cabin refurbishment (and no doubt you know that's not a cheap affair, especially not on a widebody with premium classes). Just to indicate, it's not all/allways about having the newest aircraft to have the financially most concious decision.

Was the decision for replacement at SN put off for way too long? Pff, I doubt it. What would have changed when they made the decision 1-2 years ago? If LH hasn't completed its long term widebody fleet strategy (mainly for the smaller widebodies), it definitely wouldn't have a few years back. Could SN have made the decision on their own if they would have had the money? Yes they could, but why would they if they knew they still had some time and that as a full LH daughter it would all make much more financial sense? Even if you talk about just leasing new aircraft, you still commit yourself to an agreement with a huge value (in particular with new or almost new aircraft, you would normally sign for at least 10 years). That's not an easy decision to make on your own as a small carrier (even when being more profitable, it remains a huge investment).

[Bralo20]

This speculating is kinda fun but wonder when we will get actual news about it since a decision was probably taken already.

[nordikcam]

This speculating is kinda fun but wonder when we will get actual news about it since a decision was probably taken already.

I agree