Brussels region noise regulation

[Acid-drop]

Yes mate. But main problem : would overfly flanders instead of BRU regio. Again, stupid, humans, I know...

Why is that a problem ?
Nobody in flanders seems to be complaining and politics prefer economic. Everybody happy no ?

[lumumba]

Brussels minister Guy Vanhengel

And what will be the taxi time for cargo aircraft, from Brucargo to the new Vanhengel 25L? At least 20 minutes. For those who sometimes leave from AMS: when you have to take off from 36L, and when 36C is also in use, you wonder if you are going to ride to destination, or fly.

The CARGO aircraft could use 25R I mean if there is a compromise Brussels will not use the strict noise regulation.

But I think that stretching or not ,but making 25L a take off runway to south west will part of the agreement.

[Passenger]

It is very acceptable if you use common sense :
- the wind is always right. No funky political bypass.
- rural wins over dense area

Is that really common sense? "Dense areas should get less flights then rural areas? If you live in Tervuren or in Wezenbeek-Oppem or in Meise, you should get 10 times more flights over your head then if you would live in Schaarbeek/Schaerbeek or Haren/Haeren?

No sir, common sense would be this:
- the wind is always right. No funky political bypass.
- once airborne, we rotate every 30 or 60 minutes, weather permitting.
- during night, we rotate on a weekly basis. Like LHR does:
http://www.heathrow.com/file_source/Hea ... y_maps.pdf

[Crosswind]

It is very acceptable if you use common sense :
- the wind is always right. No funky political bypass.
- rural wins over dense area

Is that really common sense? "Dense areas should get less flights then rural areas? If you live in Tervuren or in Wezenbeek-Oppem or in Meise, you should get 10 times more flights over your head then if you would live in Schaarbeek/Schaerbeek or Haren/Haeren?

Of course it makes sense to avoid high populated regio ! Why the hell would we annoy 1 000 000 people if you can divide this number by three ? That's pure senseless ! Next, as I told you, the spreading plan must take into account the real economics benefits for all parties, Bru, Fl. an Wal.

Otherwise it's unfair.

[Atlantis]

I am aware it can never be easy. But something needs to be done, right now. And think of the awful opportunities for real-estate development at the present BRU site... that would make up for a good deal of the cost.

Be serious for a min. Belgium is already so crowded that it is never never never possible to build a new big airport. Everywhere you have a lot of people living or some big industries and restrictions. And be sure that on other places they will even demonstrate much more and harder bcs they have the example of Brussels and they will do exactly the same. So what is the solution than??? And as second, the more you move to left, right, up or down, the more you come closer to CDG, AMS, FRA, etc. Don't you think that airlines will not decide to leave BRU and to concentrate on those airports???
Don't forget the huge investments they made the last years.
All other airports are even not able to handle the traffic what BRU is handling. Or they are too small or they are hopeless old like OST and ANR. Think about what it will cost.

You want to develop real estate at the the BRU site?? Yeah right, with an already fully congested highways, secondairy roads, etc. My God, that would be even a much more disaster bcs it will even more concentrate people to a certain place.


Let all members please think clearly instead of having a bunch of fetish ideas which is not realistic. Whith moving away the airport, also the airlines will stay away and all multinationals, NATO, HQ, etc

Please.....

I ask the question directly to you Atlantis what do you think to make from 25L also a take off runway?

Not stretched just new taxiways etc...

Dear Lumumba,

Stretching runway 25L and a new parallel taxiway next to it is in the plans/proposition of BRU 2040. The proposition is to make it longer with 900 meters to the East.

The purpose of this is to increase the capacity. At this moment we have 74 movements an hour and this mostly concentrated on 25R. But during the morning and afternoon it is not enough anymore.
Stretching 25L is to use both runways for landings and take off at the same time and this to increase the capacity to more than 80 in 2020 and 94 in 2040.

To stretch it is absolutely possible as there is the needed space for.

In the early stage, when we were thinking how to increase the capacity of the terminals and runways, there was even, shortly, an idea to build a whole new fourth runway on the airport. More or less parallel with runway 01/19 but quiet far away from the current facilities. But that short idea was sent to the trash bcs the impact on the environment.

[Crosswind]

In 2013, over 73000 departures, more than 52000 of them overflew Brussels. Nearly 80% of DEP out pf 25R... This without taking into account all the arrivals on 01 and 07L. Quite expensive if you compare with the 3000 jobs Brussels get at the airport !

[Stij]

In order to make French speaking parties reasonable... Can t we have 50% of the departures on 19? That s over Flanders but over French speaking party voters... That way they hurt themselves by being too stubborn...

Stij

[Crosswind]

What do you mean by reasonable ? To support all the noise without having any right on anything ? It's not serious. 50% of DEP out of runway 19 would, as well, seriously reduce the airport capacity, and it's not the idea. The idea is to spread fairly the nuisance, not to be sly, dishonest or whatsoever of that kind of mind.

[lumumba]

Be serious for a min. Belgium is already so crowded that it is never never never possible to build a new big airport. Everywhere you have a lot of people living or some big industries and restrictions. And be sure that on other places they will even demonstrate much more and harder bcs they have the example of Brussels and they will do exactly the same. So what is the solution than??? And as second, the more you move to left, right, up or down, the more you come closer to CDG, AMS, FRA, etc. Don't you think that airlines will not decide to leave BRU and to concentrate on those airports???
Don't forget the huge investments they made the last years.
All other airports are even not able to handle the traffic what BRU is handling. Or they are too small or they are hopeless old like OST and ANR. Think about what it will cost.

You want to develop real estate at the the BRU site?? Yeah right, with an already fully congested highways, secondairy roads, etc. My God, that would be even a much more disaster bcs it will even more concentrate people to a certain place.


Let all members please think clearly instead of having a bunch of fetish ideas which is not realistic. Whith moving away the airport, also the airlines will stay away and all multinationals, NATO, HQ, etc

Please.....

I ask the question directly to you Atlantis what do you think to make from 25L also a take off runway?

Not stretched just new taxiways etc...

Dear Lumumba,

Stretching runway 25L and a new parallel taxiway next to it is in the plans/proposition of BRU 2040. The proposition is to make it longer with 900 meters to the East.

The purpose of this is to increase the capacity. At this moment we have 74 movements an hour and this mostly concentrated on 25R. But during the morning and afternoon it is not enough anymore.
Stretching 25L is to use both runways for landings and take off at the same time and this to increase the capacity to more than 80 in 2020 and 94 in 2040.

To stretch it is absolutely possible as there is the needed space for.

In the early stage, when we were thinking how to increase the capacity of the terminals and runways, there was even, shortly, an idea to build a whole new fourth runway on the airport. More or less parallel with runway 01/19 but quiet far away from the current facilities. But that short idea was sent to the trash bcs the impact on the environment.

Another idea is to do the same without stretching it.
So you don't hurt Erps Kwerps,Kortenberg etc...
That could be the best solution?

Or maybe stretching it but only 400 or 500 meters and keeping the landing point at the same place!

[Atlantis]

I ask the question directly to you Atlantis what do you think to make from 25L also a take off runway?

Not stretched just new taxiways etc...

Dear Lumumba,

Stretching runway 25L and a new parallel taxiway next to it is in the plans/proposition of BRU 2040. The proposition is to make it longer with 900 meters to the East.

The purpose of this is to increase the capacity. At this moment we have 74 movements an hour and this mostly concentrated on 25R. But during the morning and afternoon it is not enough anymore.
Stretching 25L is to use both runways for landings and take off at the same time and this to increase the capacity to more than 80 in 2020 and 94 in 2040.

To stretch it is absolutely possible as there is the needed space for.

In the early stage, when we were thinking how to increase the capacity of the terminals and runways, there was even, shortly, an idea to build a whole new fourth runway on the airport. More or less parallel with runway 01/19 but quiet far away from the current facilities. But that short idea was sent to the trash bcs the impact on the environment.

Another idea is to do the same without stretching it.
So you don't hurt Erps Kwerps,Kortenberg etc...
That could be the best solution?

Or maybe stretching it but only 400 or 500 meters and keeping the landing point at the same place!

No you can't. It is not a little bit of this and a little bit of that. We have to go for stretching it bcs we are speaking about to double the capacity of the airport. Did people forgot about 2040??
We want to attract much more passengers: business and leisure.
The current capacity is ok for the current number of pax but we have already problems during the whole morning and afternoon regarding the number of movements an hour. We have much more movements than capacity on the runways.

So we have to stretch runway 25L and the taxiway to make it a full operational runway for both landings and take offs at the same time. This also to receive the A380.

I really think that people don't know in full what they are talking about when it comes to the technical aspects, capacity, near future, etc.

An airport can not build this or that, not a half new terminal or a half new pier. When you extend, than you have to do it in full.

[lumumba]

But if I'm not mistaken Brussels Airport other proposition if the stretching is not accepted is just to make 25L also a take off runway to the south west with new taxiways etc?!?!

[Atlantis]

But if I'm not mistaken Brussels Airport other proposition if the stretching is not accepted is just to make 25L also a take off runway to the south west with new taxiways etc?!?!

Please Lumumba, take a map with all wind directions! How on earth can the airport stretch the airport runway 25L to the south west???? If they do than they have their runway in Zaventem center and on the Brussels highway.

BRU only proposed to strech runway 25L to THE EAST!!!

There are two options: to stretch the taxiway along 25L or to stretch 25L with 900 m and also the taxiway

The huge advantage of stretching 25L is that airplanes will be already much higher in the air during take off and creating less noise when they reach villages around.

[convair]

But if I'm not mistaken Brussels Airport other proposition if the stretching is not accepted is just to make 25L also a take off runway to the south west with new taxiways etc?!?!

Please Lumumba, take a map with all wind directions! How on earth can the airport stretch the airport runway 25L to the south west???? If they do than they have their runway in Zaventem center and on the Brussels highway.

BRU only proposed to strech runway 25L to THE EAST!!!

There are two options: to stretch the taxiway along 25L or to stretch 25L with 900 m and also the taxiway

The huge advantage of stretching 25L is that airplanes will be already much higher in the air during take off and creating less noise when they reach villages around.

I think that is what lumumba meant (and wrote).

[lumumba]

But if I'm not mistaken Brussels Airport other proposition if the stretching is not accepted is just to make 25L also a take off runway to the south west with new taxiways etc?!?!

Please Lumumba, take a map with all wind directions! How on earth can the airport stretch the airport runway 25L to the south west???? If they do than they have their runway in Zaventem center and on the Brussels highway.

BRU only proposed to strech runway 25L to THE EAST!!!

There are two options: to stretch the taxiway along 25L or to stretch 25L with 900 m and also the taxiway

The huge advantage of stretching 25L is that airplanes will be already much higher in the air during take off and creating less noise when they reach villages around.

Dear Atlantis.

I never said stretching to the south west I said take off to the south west!

So if I'm not mistaken Brussels Airport second plan if the stretching was not accepted was to ad taxi ways to the runway 25L to make it possible to TAKE OFF to the south west....?

[Atlantis]

New up and off taxiways on 25L/25R are needed to make planes quicker go off that runway to avoid that planes has longer in the air than needed. This has everything to do with increasing the capacity.

On this way you can use both 07L/07R and 25L/25R on the best possible way and this also in combination with 01/19.

When you use the three runways at the same time you can spread the noise on the best possible way.

This is exactly one of the plans that BRU proposed

[lumumba]

New up and off taxiways on 25L/25R are needed to make planes quicker go off that runway to avoid that planes has longer in the air than needed. This has everything to do with increasing the capacity.

On this way you can use both 07L/07R and 25L/25R on the best possible way and this also in combination with 01/19.

When you use the three runways at the same time you can spread the noise on the best possible way.

This is exactly one of the plans that BRU proposed

Thx that's exactly what I understood I think that will be the solution without stretching.

It's the more convenient for the two parties.

[Fairfax]

Jean-Marie Dedecker in Knack - in his own special style - but hitting the nail on the head. He suggests, in his last alinea, the the situation will be defused by offering Bxl more money ... a political game after all?

http://www.knack.be/nieuws/belgie/veel- ... 16543.html

[sn26567]

Welcome to Luchtzak, Fairfax!

[lumumba]

Jean-Marie Dedecker in Knack - in his own special style - but hitting the nail on the head. He suggests, in his last alinea, the the situation will be defused by offering Bxl more money ... a political game after all?

http://www.knack.be/nieuws/belgie/veel- ... 16543.html

Jean Marie Dedecker said also not so long ago that all the press is or in Jewish hands or manipulated by them.

He is really not serious he is a populist that's all ,Brussels will never accept money .

[Magiktrix]

The solution will be technical not political. Its the job off belgocontrol to bring us something that is really 2017. The problem is that our SID's where designed in the 1960's and today the text of the SID's clearly reflect this.

The turns are defined by an altitude not by a position. 700 feet for the right turn, 1700 feet for the left turn. Its obvious that nobody will turn at the same place. Its depending on wind, temperature, QNH, Flaps settings and weight. The overflown zone is much bigger because off the spreading off trajectories.

The noise abatement procedure is still the old 1500/3000 feet procedure that come from the DC-9 era. Thrust reduction at 800 feet and acceleration to flaps up speed is possible. The perceived noise is the sum off all the noises. And the flaps are creating a good share off the total.

http://www.aero.jaxa.jp/eng/research/ecat/fquroh/

The following video show the state of the art, you will see that its possible to vastly improve the routing on approaches, but exactly the same is possible on departures. Most of the aircraft operating today in BRU are RNP capable but its not used in BRU.