Belgocontrol ATC strikes 2016

[thalenoi]

...
I was dead-heading as an IT manager from BKK and we had a dead-heading crew on board.
After landing at home base the captain of the DH crew told them: don't forget to mention 24h "on duty" (they boarded at HKG), yeah, reading books and having stupid discussions with me: "where to buy the cheapest PC on the planet?" I would not dare to add 1h overtime on my time-sheet during my overseas work travels, my boss said "you have a managers salary, no overtime, time zone, night time, sat-sun premium, no 90 usd per diem when you sit your arse in a flight seat unlike our pilots.
...

I don't want to discuss with you on your one time experience of how crews are or what they do for their salaries, but here's my view of your story.
In this case it might have been that the captain just reminded that they performed a duty of 24h, maybe they are not paid for the DH, but it counts as duty time for their rest calculation. Imagine that they arrive in home base after this DH and after just a couple of hours could have started their next duty?
As for what you as a manager earned, this is most probably what is stipulated in your individual contract. Most airlines work with a CLA just to cover all aspects you mention to make it fair to the whole community, just to imagine my 'small' airline who alone operates with 2000+ flying staff has to handle individual requests etc...
You were a manager, you should have known a little bit more me thinks?

Dear shockcooling,

You must have missed the first sentence of my post:

"Not knowing about ATC's but having worked 10 years for an airline I can comment on "some" pilots...."

Not paid for the DH?
You must be joking....

[Crosswind]

Of course we are paid for DH. Quite logic.

[Poiu]

Of course we are paid for DH. Quite logic.

Well then you are the exception, most airlines don't take DH time into account for monthly flight hours calculation. Some airlines even don't take bunk time into account.
Some airlines pay a duty pay and that is generally paid for DH as well, but it is only a couple of $/hour.

[Crosswind]

Right, we are not paid per DH flown hours, but the day is still considered to be a working day. For example, We had to go once for a short DH to a given european city, day 1, straight to the hotel in order to be able to make an early take-off on day 2. We didn't flew day 1 as active crews but we received a full day salary. Day 1 was considered as a working day.The only difference was in that we didn't get the hour related's salary.

[shockcooling]

Thalenoi, That's why I said 'maybe', I just wanted to indicate not every airline and therefore pilots work the same way... Indeed DH flights are not paid out as a flying hour, but are there for calculation of duty time. And maybe this captain informed his crew just to be sure for rest calculation, something crew dispatching for example can misuse in their favour.

So crosswind, of course your day 1 is a working day, what would be next if it's not counted as a working day? Imagine this scenario would be possible... Day 1 DH, day 2 working, day 3 DH, day 4 working, day 5 DH, day 6 working, day 7 DH, day 8 working, day 9 DH -> you would be paid for 4 days and day 1 and day 9 are your weekend days ? Lovely working conditions that is. (And if someone wants to compare it with managers doing business trips and have to bear the same, just imagine crews have to work in patterns like this all year round) Therefore there is a CLA put in place, just like it is for Atco's

[thalenoi]

I don't want to discuss with you on your one time experience of how crews are or what they do for their salaries, but here's my view of your story.
In this case.....

No shockcooling, you clearly missed the point with your "one time experience"
As I mentioned "having worked 10 years for an airline" your deduction of a "one time experience" is rather wrong. I lost the count of my outstation missions and have rather bad memories re behaviour of our crews (pilots) on board. Never met more arrogant people in my working life. And I did work an other 25 years as an IT consultant for customers all over the Northern hemisphere (never made it South of the Equator)

I also was well aware of their salary structure having implemented the airline's salary software...

You may want to say that pilots working for other airlines than the one I worked for are less arrogant, that's a possibility.

OK, back to ATC's....

[Crosswind]

Hello, thalenoi. Sure I'm one of those

Which airline was ? Air France ?

But clearly, what do you mean by arrogance ?

[sn26567]

Strike of CGSP (French-speaking public servants section of FGTB/ABVV) tomorrow 31 March.

The CGSP affiliated ATCos are likely to be on strike, with impact on Walloon airports, but possibly also on Brussels airport.

[sn26567]

The Belgian government intends to introduce a minimum service level for air traffic control in Belgium.

[jan_olieslagers]

Pfff. Let them first do so on the railways and on prison staff. Both much more important to the country as a whole. If they've managed that we can talk again - but it will not be tomorrow, nor the day after. Excuse me for going into politics but that is hard to avoid; and it wasn't me who started mentioning government.

[Passenger]

The Belgian government intends to introduce a minimum service level for air traffic control in Belgium.

About time. And necessary: Brussels Airport is the second most important venue (number one is Antwerp harbour).

There are enough countries where it already exists, so the government just has to copy/paste (and adjust) their legislation.

[Hue]

The Belgian government intends to introduce a minimum service level for air traffic control in Belgium.

It won't change much. In the past supervisors always had to stay in the Ops-Rooms for coordinations and there have always been people willing to work, guarding each and every ATC radio frequency. A minimum service has always been provided for emergencies, to allow extra runway inspections/works at airports et cetera. Unions are strongly opposed to see this institutionalised, but don't expect to see much change for aviation.

[Poiu]

Hue- It will change a lot, minimum service is much more than emergency, works, ...
It would be something like: normal capacity is 60 movements/hour, minimum service 30.

Jan- I think the law will be for all services at the same time: ATC, prison, public transport, hospitals....

[Passenger]

The Belgian government intends to introduce a minimum service level for air traffic control in Belgium.

It won't change much. In the past supervisors always had to stay in the Ops-Rooms for coordinations and there have always been people willing to work, guarding each and every ATC radio frequency. A minimum service has always been provided for emergencies, to allow extra runway inspections/works at airports et cetera. Unions are strongly opposed to see this institutionalised, but don't expect to see much change for aviation.

It will change a lot, when it's going to be a real "minimal service level". Not the one kind of service you're referring to during your syndical protests (aka "unfit to work"): emergencies, medical flights, military flights. A real "minimal service level" will be a law that describes how operational the service must be during social action. Example... 0% of the flights between 0 kms and 1.000 kms, 50% of the flights between 1.000 kms and 3.000 kms for each airline, 100% of all flights of 3.000 kms or more.

When there are not enough ATC's on duty for this service, management (or the minister) can commandeer those on strike to come to work (opvorderen/réquisitionner).

It's noted that the unions are strongly opposed to see this institutionalised. But please note that the large majority of the taxpayers is strongly opposed to your syndical powerplay.

[jan_olieslagers]

I think the law will be for all services at the same time: ATC, prison, public transport, hospitals....

That is hard to imagine: as explained above, the definition of "minimal service" must be fixed for each of these individually. At most there could be a law fixing the general principles, but practical details must be fixed, and negociated, for each activity.

[Poiu]

I think the law will be for all services at the same time: ATC, prison, public transport, hospitals....

That is hard to imagine: as explained above, the definition of "minimal service" must be fixed for each of these individually. At most there could be a law fixing the general principles, but practical details must be fixed, and negociated, for each activity.

Sorry I wasn't clear, I meant exactly what you wrote Jan.
(I am shocked though that Passenger and me had the same idea at the same time )

[Hue]

It would be something like: normal capacity is 60 movements/hour, minimum service 30.

That's like a prohibition on industrial action. I guess that is why the unions oppose. Once you accept this principle, how do you define the term 'minimum' and wich guarantees do you have it won't be raised year after year? Or introduced in private companies?

[Poiu]

Many countries have laws on minimum service, even France, where strike is a constitutional right!
The wildcat strikes, real or perceived, from the last weeks even opened the eyes of the Flemish socialist party. If unions want to prevent the laws, they better start behaving like adults and responsible persons urgently.

[Passenger]

Once you accept this principle, how do you define the term 'minimum' and wich guarantees do you have it won't be raised year after year?

It's quite easy. First step: a law that defines it, example: minimal service level is the level of services that is required to be offered to the public at all times". Second step: a series of Koninklijke Besluiten / Arrêts Royals (KB/AR) for each department to define how it must be done.

"Guarantees it won't be raised year after year?". Why would there has to be such guarantee? Belgium is a democracy, so when you disagree with a new KB/AR with new rules, your union (or guild) is allowed to go to the Constitutional Court and ask withdrawal of it.

That's like a prohibition on industrial action. I guess that is why the unions oppose. Once you accept this principle, how do you define the term 'minimum' and wich guarantees do you have it won't be raised year after year?

No worries. You will be allowed lots of "industrial action". You wil be allowed to block off a limited number of flights and harass those passengers. You will be allowed to hold a march from the Brussels Grand Place to Manneke Pis with signs "our minister is a bastard". You will be allowed to join the annual 1st May drink orgy at the ABVV/FGTB head office. The only thing that you will have to do, legally, is to announce such syndical action xx days in advance, leaving time for management to make a roster that matches the legal requirements. And if management finds out that not enough atco's will be on duty, management will send out convocations. And unfortunately, some will then have to cancel their presence at a protest march indeed.

[Jetter]

Once you accept this principle, how do you define the term 'minimum' and wich guarantees do you have it won't be raised year after year?

It's quite easy. First step: a law that defines it, example: minimal service level is the level of services that is required to be offered to the public at all times". Second step: a series of Koninklijke Besluiten / Arrêts Royals (KB/AR) for each department to define how it must be done.

"Guarantees it won't be raised year after year?". Why would there has to be such guarantee? Belgium is a democracy, so when you disagree with a new KB/AR with new rules, your union (or guild) is allowed to go to the Constitutional Court and ask withdrawal of it.

That's like a prohibition on industrial action. I guess that is why the unions oppose. Once you accept this principle, how do you define the term 'minimum' and wich guarantees do you have it won't be raised year after year?

No worries. You will be allowed lots of "industrial action". You wil be allowed to block off a limited number of flights and harass those passengers. You will be allowed to hold a march from the Brussels Grand Place to Manneke Pis with signs "our minister is a bastard". You will be allowed to join the annual 1st May drink orgy at the ABVV/FGTB head office. The only thing that you will have to do, legally, is to announce such syndical action xx days in advance, leaving time for management to make a roster that matches the legal requirements. And if management finds out that not enough atco's will be on duty, management will send out convocations. And unfortunately, some will then have to cancel their presence at a protest march indeed.

Spot on. To add to that, if you don't like your job you can find another one. I heard last time there were more than 10.000 applications so replacement won't be a problem