Brussels Airlines' fleet renewal

[RTM]

I am allways amazed how much people focus on aricraft age... And especially how they manage to tie it to the airline quality... SN has an old fleet, and is a poor airline... But take a axample to SWISS... Gooooood airline. They set the standard... bla bla bla...
Ever bothered to compare the average A32F fleet age of SN to that of LX...?

Also... some of SN's oldest A32F machines have a working IFE with a moving map... Goooooood aircraft. While some of the youngest don't.... Old piece of crap... Other than that, they are all the same... At least as far as the customer goes...

I've flown on a 30+ year old DC9 looking like new inside. Comfortable flight, friendly crew and on time. Was a US carrier. I take that anytime. A brand new aircraft from an African, South American, Former Soviet or some far east carriers, I will never get on board.

But of coarse, that is all irrelevant, it is about bitching SN... I for one applaude where they came from, and where they are going. They are rejuvenating and harmonizing the fleet, it is just not done with a snap from the fingers. They are constantly working on upping their game, and turned a massive loss around to a black result. All the while investing and competing tough competition. Good for them.

As for the pic of SFX... Nice. :thumbup:

[RTM]

Fair enough... Maybe not the best choice of words. But... It has nothing to do with fleet renewal either...
Go back to the beginning of this thread, SN was still flying 737, RJ85, heck, even a couple of 146', small A32F fleet, and the odds stacked against them like you wouldn't believe. See how things evolved in a fierce uphill battle. 737 gone, RJ85 gone, 146 gone, oldest oddball A319 gone, first RJ100 about to leave, a handsome amount of A319 and A320 of decent to young age joined the fleet. A330 fleet expanded, and now is being readied for the future with the introduction of a very young newer type of A333 which will set the standard for all A330 to follow, or at least, that would make the most sense. More A319 and 320 to join shortly, and the focus here shifts to the fact that not all SH A32F have folddown screens to watch the progress of your 2 hrs flight on... And other things like that...

[teach]

No teach, the stars are given by skytrax
The score is given by passengers

Yes, sorry, you're right, I checked. Still, since it is based on a number of very clear criteria, that Skytrax rating is a lot more objective and telling than those numbers passengers give. Passengers mostly only write these kinds of reviews in order to complain. If they were happy, most people don't bother to post a review on that site.

And to come back to this:

IFE has a very low rating, that also has to do with the cabin and old fleet.

...and just how much that is nonsense: the IFE rating is quite useless on that website, because it makes a total score based on all reviews, of both short haul and long haul routes. With all European airlines, it's the same thing: NO IFE on short-haul, IFE only on long haul. That means the scoring system is 'rigged' toward airlines that have proportionally more long-haul flights and thus more long-haul reviews, because only the long-haul reviews can normally have high scores for IFE. And the results are clear: look up carriers with large intercontinental networks relative to their size (British Airways, KLM, Air France, Lufthansa, Swiss), and you'll consistently see 3 star scores for IFE. Look up carriers with smaller intercontinental networks relative to their size (Brussels Airlines, Austrian, SAS, Finnair, Iberia, Alitalia, TAP, Aer Lingus) and you'll consistently see 2 stars for IFE. That's not because IFE on those carriers is worse, it's because a smaller percentage of their flights (and thus their reviews) are long-haul.

[White Light]

Fully agree with RTM, and on topic ! The only thing I really don't like (but it has nothing to do with the fleet age) is the uncomfortable new seats on the A319/320.

The thing we all wish (well, perhaps not all of us) is to see the long-fleet grow more quickly (even with second hand aircraft which will be upgraded anyway).

[avroflyer_1]

A little update on the incoming planes:

MSN2207 ex EC-IZD will become OO-SNH
MSN1759 ex N908FR will become OO-SSJ
MSN1803 ex N912FR will become OO-SSL
MSN2030 ex N924FR will become OO-SSS
MSN2260 ex N933FR will become OO-SSX

Seems Frontier was a popular airline to get 319's at

[Flanker2]

Unfortunately, those seats are not acceptable for me.
I have been on a SN flight recently and I couldn't sleep properly because of the hard back.
Also, the flight was quite noisy as the cabin crew couldn't seem to stop selling stuff and the speakers were set too loud.. it was like flying the old Ryanair.

Wouldn't it be good though to keep some RJ100's considering the oil prices?
The lessor would probably be extatic if they could lease them out for another 2 years even if at rock bottom price.
I would keep 10 if the lease costs only a few million Euro's per year. I mean 10 aircraft at your disposal for less than 0.5% of total revenue... It's perfect to use as spare, charter, wetlease or even to base aircraft at strategic locations where they can do a night stop and fly some additional flights during the day... I have a few idea's of cities where 2 or 3 based RJ100's can make good money while hurting competitors.

At current oil prices, lease costs are becoming a much larger consideration.
In fact, if the lease is cheap enough, at current oil prices, a RJ100 can beat the CASM of a A319 and even A320 without having to fill the same amount of seats.

Example calculation, all other factors considered proportionally equal:
200FH per month
A319 145 seats: 160.000 EUR lease + 200.000 EUR fuel = 360.000 EUR for 29.000 seat hours or 12.41 EUR pet seat hour.
A320 165 seats: 180.000 EUR lease + 210.000 EUR fuel = 390.000 EUR for 33.000 seat hours or 11.82 EUR per seat hour
RJ100 92 seats: 30.000 EUR lease + 180.000 EUR fuel = 210.000 EUR for 18.400 seat hours or 11.41 EUR per seat hour

[Pocahontas]

Spare parts are harder and harder to find.
A technical problem in outstation results almost the whole time in cancelled flights, because no licensed engineers are available at that station.
P-RNAV will be a requirement in 2018 (correct me if I am wrong), Bru Air Avro's only RNP5.
Continuing with the Avro, nope, not a good idea. How can one predict how the oil price will evolve in the future?

[RTM]

The AVRO's are non FANS-B, mandatory after 31-12-2017.
Keeping them inthe fleet would mean a huge investment.

[crew1990]

OO-SNC is back to operation after a retrofit to a A320MAX, OO-SND left to Prague to be retrofitted.

Just as a small summary.

A320 classic: OO-SNF OO-TCQ
A320 MAX: OO-SNA OO-SNB OO-SNC OO-SNG
A320 in retrofit: OO-SND
A320 to be delivered: OO-SNE OO-SNH

[Flanker2]

The AVRO's are non FANS-B, mandatory after 31-12-2017.
Keeping them inthe fleet would mean a huge investment.

Not correct.

http://www.eraa.org/sites/default/files ... 2009_0.pdf

Regulation (EC) No 29/2009 is amended as follows:
(1) in Article 1, paragraph 3 is replaced by the following:
‘3. This Regulation shall apply to all flights operating as general air traffic in accordance with instrument flight
rules within the airspace above FL285 defined in Parts A and B of Annex I.’;
(2) in Article 3, paragraphs 2, 3, 4 and 5 are replaced by the following:
‘2. Without prejudice to paragraph 3, operators shall ensure that aircraft operating flights referred to in
Article 1(3) have the capability to operate the data link services defined in Annex II as from 5 February 2020.

For infrastructure reliability reasons CPDLC has been delayed by over 2 years.
The Avro's don't cruise very high so FL280 is very workable IMO.

Finally, I don't think that the system itself is too expensive to install.

Avro spares are quite ok too, as many have been stored and are in the process of being dismantled as we speak. Sure, they are not as available as in-production spares but SN has a contract for these no? Support is still handled by BAe Systems, so...

Maintenance requirements are probably increasing and so are costs, but I'm talking about the extension for a C-check's worth at a time. The lessor would be very glad if SN extends anything.

[RTM]

And... Dr. Google strikes again...
Lets just put it this way Flanker... Aviation doesn't (always) work the way you imagine it...

But I am not going to bother explaining every little thing to you, as you won't accept it anyway, and stray way of subject to finally get to a statement where you cannot go wrong on a completely unrelated subject to get your right.

[Flanker2]

Why don't you do that RTM? Because I would be very interested to see what you have to say.
You have proven that you are very misinformed at least.

[sn26567]

Gentlemen, could you please play the ball, not the player? Facts please!!!

[RTM]

Sorry about that André,

I just tried to end a pointless and useless discussion before it started.

Fact is that the AVRO fleet will be retired before the end of 2017, the reasons are known, and therefore no more investments well be done to prolong the operation beyond 2017.
From a technical point of view that means that the FANS-B modification, will not be performed. Ending its SN usefullness at 31-12-2017, as it is a RVSM certified and operated aircrafttype.

End of discussion.

[JOVAN]

Sorry about that André,

I just tried to end a pointless and useless discussion before it started.

Fact is that the AVRO fleet will be retired before the end of 2017, the reasons are known, and therefore no more investments well be done to prolong the operation beyond 2017.
From a technical point of view that means that the FANS-B modification, will not be performed. Ending its SN usefullness at 31-12-2017, as it is a RVSM certified and operated aircrafttype.

End of discussion.

End of 2017 is coming very soon.
SN has not yet decided about new planes for their fleet.

Not every destination is important enough to fill an A319 or bigger.

So I would not be surprised if we see AVRO's in SN fleet in 2018 and beyond.
I think the discussion is interesting and not useless.

Let interested and interesting people give their opinions.

[RoMax]

End of 2017 is coming very soon.
SN has not yet decided about new planes for their fleet.

Not every destination is important enough to fill an A319 or bigger.

So I would not be surprised if we see AVRO's in SN fleet in 2018 and beyond.
I think the discussion is interesting and not useless.

Let interested and interesting people give their opinions.

The vast majority will be replaced by A319's. What cannot be served by A319's, will be served by wet lease aircraft. They are already considering different options (types, numbers, partners, ...), so don't worry, 2017 is still a long time if you 'just' have to find the right wet-lease aircraft (especially when you are part of a group like LH Group, look at the very short term solution Austrian found in the Embraers of LH Cityline).

SN delayed the final exit of the Avro's for several times, but they won't go beyond the end of 2017.

[crew1990]

Yes it has been decided! The Avros will be replaced with A319/A320 for the bigger routes, and Q400 and ERJ145 on wetlease for the short term, the avro's will NOT stay beyond 2017.

[Stij]

Looks like a chicken, flies like an eagle!
The Avro's... I'll miss them!
But I understand SN stops investing in them: one sudden surge in the oil price and they re a big liability...

Cheers,

Stij

[OO-ITR]

If SN is still looking for other A330s for expansion or replacement, SQ has two other A333's in storage..
9V-STJ and 9V-STK

[convair]

If SN is still looking for other A330s for expansion or replacement, SQ has two other A333's in storage..
9V-STJ and 9V-STK

I'm sure SN is well aware of that. However, if they procrastinate for too long, someone else will snatch them.
These SQ birds seem to be the ideal pick to start the replacement of the oldest M,N and O A333s and get ready for a little l/h network expansion. Too expensive for SN?