Background info on hiring techniques at the low cost airlines

[sean1982]

Who ordered or presented the study is irrelevant.

The facts remain: a lot of independent workers pilots are in fact employees of a single airline.
And the practice is common in low cost carriers.

If they were truly independent, they'd be able to offer their service to other carriers. But they are not. A contract forbids them to fly for someone else.

Sean, as a cabin crew, you might have a similar situation. If so, don't you believe it is abusive from your employer not to offer you proper employment (and all the protections that come with it?)

I actually know of similar cases in other professions, like in IT or consulting. But they are a bit different, as they provide their service to different customers. Even though their 'salary' is always paid by the same company.

I am and have been employed by Ryanair for 11 years allready .. since day 1

[sean1982]

What the pilots must understand is that they are paid by the customers. Thus, yes, less highly paid pilots is a good news for the traveller who, as a consequence, will pay less for his tickets.

Of course it is, yet this principle is valid pretty much all round, and not just limited to aviation.

If we apply this mechanism throughout our economy, ALL companies can significantly lower the costs of their products through massively slashing salaries (which is good news for us as consumers) and in theory should stimulate their sales, but since we ALL earn our living from working somehow too, we are also ALL going to be affected negatively by it (through a much lower income) if indeed it is widely done: not sure if the consumer buying power (say roughly the ratio between the 2) is going to be influenced positively by such an downward evolution on both fronts at the same time, which is why it is -IMHO- a good idea to have minimum stadards and some form of market regulation in place to prevent this race to the bottom from happening indeed: if one does it, it's fun as it creates a cheap alternative, but if everybody does it: it creates a depression.

Especially the exemple set by Norwegian for their US flights should be extremely worrying to anybody with an understanding of economics as this seems to import East-Asian working and pay conditions straight into the Western world, something which really should be blocked, IMHO!?

Imagine the same happening throughout Europe on a wide scale (not just aviation): in the end much of our European manufacturing economy is driven by the demand from domestic consumers, and so it's a very bad idea to hit that domestic consumer hard in his pocket when he goes to work as it will create a situation identical to the one we see in Greece, where constant and widespread wage reductions kickstarted a deflationary spiral which basically ruined whatever economic activity there was left in the country because most people are now simply without enough money left to buy any consumer goods (even at much lowered prices than before).

Do you know how many thai cabin crew are actually employed by norwegian?? I think maybe 5% off all cabin crew. So please don't tell me you know what you're talking about.

[Inquirer]

Sean, I am sure you know perfectly well that once a company starts a process of delocalisation, it will closely monitor the financial impact of such a move.
As it likely constitutes a significant cost saving, it isn't very improbable to see it being increased as time goes by and experience is gained with the operational aspects of it.
At present, there seem to be several legal hurdles still in place to roll it out in a much larger scale, but what is there to guarantee those cant be lifted?
It's the irony of the matter that indeed, despite your vehement objection to being seen as behaving like traditional cabin crews, you may indeed soon find yourself in need of some sort of lobby group too to oppose and block certain plans certain employers in Europe may have with your profession.
You don't seriously believe a low cost will keep paying you (and thousand of your colleagues) five or ten found what they only need to pay South East Asian people, if they are somehow allowed to hire those instead, do you? Don't make the same mistake so many factory employees have made already! The moment we see competition in wage amongst workers in the European skies on a global scale, I dare to bet every European flying today is out of a job: do you know what people working in our Asian HQ only make? A realistic idea of expat salaries offered to people from say Thailand, the Philippines, Bangladesh who want to move half the globe to take a job offer?
The worldcup infrastructure in Qatar is currently being build by them, so there are ample sources available about what it costs and what those people are willing to sign up to, in case you doubt me. I doubt anybody here is willing to work for that amount of money?
Take my word for it: if aviation follows in the footsteps of merchant shipping, it's not going to be fun for those working in it.

[sean1982]

Fact of the matter is that Norwegian is no longer recruiting any more Thai crew for their long haul ops (or short haul for that matter) and are crewing their flights with european crew with a principle base in LGW

And with regards to short haul operations in europe, this model will be entirely impossible anyway as all crew need to have a european passport.

[Inquirer]

Fact of the matter is that Norwegian is no longer recruiting any more Thai crew for their long haul ops (or short haul for that matter) and are crewing their flights with european crew with a principle base in LGW

Th fact they seriously thought about it, is indicative of where they want to go in future.
You don't genuinely believe they have given up on the project, nor the associated cost savings, do you? They have time: it can come in 5 years too, or 10, or indeed never.
Much will depend on how successful lobby groups are at trying to block their plans off at the legal front, IMHO, as contrary to the delocalisation of the production of consumer goods, there is no subsequent transportation cost to help offset the wave advantage South East Asia holds over Europe if you import the labourer, rather than just the product of his labour.
Why should consumers pay much more to be served by European cabin crew in their infra-European flight? Asians are hardworking and friendly people too, so maybe a whole lot of people wouldn't mind an airline with cheaper tickets than say Ryanair, Even if it means flying with Thai iso Irish?
Starting to see how what you have been doing, might just as well be done by others too, and even better still?

[sean1982]

Please read my post properly to see why that's impossible

The only way non-european crew can do an intra-european flight is when it's a continuation of a long haul flight ... Like LAN does Chili-MAD-FRA

[Inquirer]

Yes i know, but its "just" a law.,so it can be changed.
20 years ago, it was impossible for an Irish company to fly from Belgium to 3rd countries too.
Today it is mostly impossible for a Non-EU company to do so, but the transatlantic free trade agreement might make it much easier for US companies.
Who says that in five or ten years from now, there won't be an EU-ASEAN free trade deal?
After all, YOU might lose your flying job, but the overall balance might be favourable for the EU economy as a whole. Should it be done, or blocked then?
Starting to see the point? You might instinctively be against protective measures since for now, you've been looking at a Eurpean competitive landscape only and your Irish contract is the better one, but I'd advice you not to be in favour of the same kind of Labour competition on a global scale, for your own personal sake.
Oh well, it's your job in the end;as a consumer I can only benefit from it if Norwegians CEO is ultimately successful in implementing a shipping model in aviation, but I still find it unethical to agree to it as a citizen.

[airazurxtror]

The universal tendency is towards cheaper manpower - or no manpower at all : the customer is also an unpaid worker.
Examples :
- there used to be an attendant to fill your tank and check the pressure of your tyres - now, you have to do it all yourself : unpaid worker
- the big stores are self-service and you are encouraged to use the self-scanning to make the bill at the end : unpaid worker
- at the bank, you have to use the automats for most banking operations - unpaid worker - (and you are even encouraged to use the home-banking, utilising your own computer and connection !)

In aviation, there is perhaps less scope for the customer serving as an unpaid worker.
Still : you are encouraged to buy your ticket on the website of the company (no more at the travel agent or at the airline office) and to print yourself your boarding pass, instead of going to a check-in desk.
By having to pay for a hold luggage, the customer is encouraged to travel only with a cabin lugagge, which he carries himself on board and off. (I am sure something will be arranged as regard self-checking of the hold luggage).
And at Brussels, you access pier A by self-scanning your boarding pass ....

[sean1982]

Inquirer, you know as well as I do that no european country is going to allow that law to be changed (or any other similar law for that matter, why stop at aviation then? Im sure an asian person can be found who is as good as what you do in your job, but 10 times cheaper) that would risk to have the largest part of it's population to risk unemployment and so make the entire economic model collapse.

Stop you're scaremongering allready.

[flightlover]

And yet that is what they are doing with the Free trade treaties: opening the borders for goods and persons.

There used to be way more factories in Belgium when there where taxes to import goods. They went, and so did a large income post for the country. Be it thrue import taxes or direct taxing the wages, due to less workers employed. So direct taxes had to go up to make up for the lost income.

Or how do you think we ended up being the most taxed workers in the world?

Free trade treaties are the doors to poverty for the local average joe.
How long will it take before China (for instance) is bailing Greece out? Developement aid is turning from east to west iso the long lasting west to east flows.

[Stij]

May I suggest some reading...

The World is flat, by Thomas Friedman.

Cheers,

Stij

[Stij]

Free trade treaties are the doors to poverty for the local average joe.
How long will it take before China (for instance) is bailing Greece out? Developement aid is turning from east to west iso the long lasting west to east flows.

Still,

I see blue collar workers flying to Thailand, playing with their IPhone 6, whereas before they had a still perfectly working IPhone 5... I see average Joe flying for day trips on FR to Rome or Venice... People replacing there perfectly working TV set for a new tv set with 3D (which they NEVER use).... and they consider this... normal...

All this wasn't there before free trade. We forget how exceptionally good the time is we live in. and we forget the advantages free trade offers to all of us, we only see the disadvantages.

The solution isn't stopping free trade, the solution is being more efficient per € we earn. This is a shared responsibility between management and employees: the first should make the processes and products better, cheaper and more inventive. The second should help management in this instead of resisting to change... Belgian Railways is the caricature of how it shouldn't be... Is it possible? Yes, see the Belgian Post...

And yes, maybe some icing on the cake will move to the Far East. But if we play the game smart, it won't be much as the global cake will become bigger as well.

Cheers,

Stij

[airazurxtror]

I see average Joe flying for day trips on FR to Rome or Venice...
(...)
All this wasn't there before free trade. We forget how exceptionally good the time is we live in. and we forget the advantages free trade offers to all of us, we only see the disadvantages.

Believe me, "average Joe" appreciates the good time we live in and the advantages of free trade, particularly as regards the airline tickets, and especially if he has known the time before deregulation when the "national" airlines freely racketted the travellers.
If some do object to free trade here on this forum, methink it's mainly because they want to preserve the interests of a corporation.

PS : I fail to see why day trips are so badly thought of. Rome and Venice (and Madrid, Barcelona, Berlin, and many other interesting destinations) are within reach even of the blue collars workers, and in my view, it's a good thing.

[flightlover]

Factories are nearly gone. Whith them leaving so does the need for supporting services like maintenance.
E-commerce will start to kill sales jobs and creates only a handfull logistical jobs. Just as bankclercks where replaced by selfservice offices or online services.
At first it whas just a national issue, moving numbers of workers from sector to sector. But with free trade treaties, what stops them from crossing borders?

You argue you see blue collar workers flying to thailand? I see that as a natural evolution on the path we are going now. Except for the cost of travel itself (which is also under presure by that same logic), that blue collar worker can be a king in Thailand. If going for a prolonged stay it might even end up being cheaper than staying at home. And it will surely beat the vallue for money you are getting compared to nearby vacations.

Though that evolution is partly countered by services like Travlbird for instance. Who bring the race to the bottom back to our doorstep.

But never mind me, I'm a doomsday thinker.

Now back on toppic?

[Stij]

PS : I fail to see why day trips are so badly thought of. Rome and Venice (and Madrid, Barcelona, Berlin, and many other interesting destinations) are within reach even of the blue collars workers, and in my view, it's a good thing.

I didn't say I think badly of it: I just wanted to point out we live in an exceptionally good period and daytrips by plane for just visiting, shopping or just flying for the sake of it is evidence for my statement.

From an ecological viewpoint one could doubt this, but that's another story...

Cheers,

Stij

[Boeing767copilot]

Some comments in Travel Magazine News, today

Only in Dutch.

[sean1982]

Hear hear ... inquirer and co

[Inquirer]

I dont agree with the assessment of flightlover that free trade agreements open the door to poverty for average Joes. As an exporting economy (which Belgium and the European Union very much is), we all benefit far more from free trade than it 'costs' us as a whole, but what I do underwrite is that certain low skilled jobs are indeed no longer competitive under a free trade agreement and those are indeed predominantly blue collar jobs.
You give the example of factory workers, which is one category of jobs which are hard to keep here indeed, it's an undeniable fact I see at work every day; there's no way in the West, one can compete on costs against the labour costs of Eastern countries, and the only thing which keeps some factory jobs here still is a mixture of higher production efficiency and standards with much lower inventory and transportation costs vs the Far East.

To relate back to this forum and more in particular this topic: I think the blue collar workers of aviation are -amongst others- cabin crew.
Take no offence, but the job does not require long studies, nor is it a particularly complex, dangerous or difficult thing to do: it is the typical customer service oriented job you find in hotels, restaurants, cruise and merchant vessels etc, but then at 10km high and its a given this is going to be one of the types of jobs which will no longer be done by Europeans once the skies are made free globally, rather than just regionally.
It's what happened aboard cruise ships long time ago too, btw, and in fact many of the Arabian carriers already turn their big planes into cruise vessels today, not just when it comes to their look, but also when it comes to their staffing, by having their supervising authorities -contrary to ours- allowing them to be crewed by very competent South East Asian crew which cost them a fraction of Western crews.


Sean, in the end it's your job which is on the line in 10 years, not mine, but I'd hope you'd at least be able to see that the only thing which guarantees your job security is an ever further eroded legal framework which many of your colleagues at national carriers also believed would keep their jobs competition free on a european scale, forever.
And now you are doing exactly the same, yet on a global scale.
You often say your loyalty towards your employer doesn't go further than the next pay check (which is the good attitude), but you are unknowingly fighting their future battles here nevertheles, one which will ultimately put you out of a job too, if what I see happening, ever turns full reality.
I'd advice you to look beyond just European competition and think globally, as aviation is still a heavily regulated sector of our European economy compared to other sectors and it is really interesting to see how even people working for entrepreneurial companies like yours are clearly stuck in what I see as legal and operational rigidity somehow when it comes to future global potential (or in your case as their employee: risk).

As said, first free trade -and movement of labour- got opened up to Western European nations, then (with the inclusion of Eastern Europe into the EU) the whole of Europe, soon there will be a transatlantic free trade agreement and I dare to bet that in one or 2 decades from now, there will be a northern hemisphere free trade zone.
I wouldn't dare to take bets on it not including also your job, especially given the blue collar nature of it as well as the increasing competition by the Arabian carriers and the way in which copy pasting their crewing methods of their planes would help make European as well as American airlines more competitive with them on several fronts again.
Not to mention regional low cost airlines like for instance Norwegian are eager to make use of the same cost benefits on their flights too of course.
If you don't want to see that or do not believe it is ever going to happen, well, don't come around to say you weren't explicitly told; you are doing a job which is typically open to suffer from the full negative effects of a global open sky and you aren't exactly working for an employer known not to be willing to take full benefit of possible cost savings from it either.

That consumer and travel organisations are defending such a liberalising move is evidently understandable, just as labour unions should logically fight it (which is what you see them do, also here above in this discussion), but as a European working in this sector, you really seem to be stuck on the wrong side of the fence, if I may say do.
Whereas your "friends" so far stood on the right side of the fence as long as we were just talking Euopean liberalisation, going forward, you may zoon find your "friends" to be those on the other side of the spectrum once your industry wakes up in a more globalized world.
Unless of course I greatly underestimate your altruism to allow Asians their social mobility.

In case you wonder what I think of it:
As an economist, I think the overall and mutual benefits are so overwhelming, it will happen
As a consumer, I am looking forward to all the new possibilities this will offer us
As a citizen, I am worried for the jobs and future well being of a whole bunch of low educated people in Europe.

[sean1982]

Low educated ... Ha ha ha
Again you show that you REALLY dont know what you're talking about

[regi]

I have a naive and genuine question out of ignorance:
what is the reason that so many younger pilots fly as a self employed person instead of an employee of an airline?
Is it their preference, so they would have more nett income?
Or is it because there is no other way to be a pilot?
Maybe they want to keep a kind of freedom as well.

About self employment and safety: that is an assumption not funded by figures.
But we have seen in the past numerous examples where jobs were outsourced for the sole reason of lower cost, and that safety was breached with lethal results. 1 well known example in Wallonie are the Arcelor Mittal accidents by subcontractors who were unfamiliar with the equipment. 3 out 5 lethal accidents was by a subcontractor !
http://www.lalibre.be/economie/actualit ... 6db9b5dd84

In Flanders we know as well what can happen if you let subcontractors in your facilities: the sabotage of the cooling system of the turbine of the nuclear reactor at Doel: 30m € cost. Suspected subcontractors are people who worked in the plant but also some employees of the security firm.

Back to the self employed pilots: they should be aware that in case of draconic changes of the airline they work for, they have zero rights compared to employees. Most of them probably laugh about this , untill their service is no longer required. Than it is too late.