Brussels Airlines future and financial perspective

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Passenger
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Re: Brussels airlines future and financial perspective

Post by Passenger »

Flanker2 wrote:BRU's November pax numbers are +247.400
SN's pax numbers are +73.500
So +173.900 or about 70% of the BRU growth is owed to other airlines.
As we could expect from a Brussels Airlines basher, this is a wrong comparison, driven by bad faith. A fair comparison would be that one would make two comparisons: one like the above, and one with the number of Ryanair's BRU-pax in Nov 2014 deducted from those +247.400 pax. Simply because Ryanair had no passengers in BRU in November 2013.

Conclusion: although Brussels Airlines now has competition from Ryanair at BRU, they managed to post a progress of 17,4% in number of passengers (and even a progress of +21% for European routes alone).

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sn26567
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Re: Brussels airlines future and financial perspective

Post by sn26567 »

RoMax wrote:But does this include their charter pax to/from BRU? Because when you calculate SN's market share from their published data with that of BRU, you should take into account that the actual market share in BRU will be slightly higher.
One reason why the charter figures are not divulged is that they might be difficult to compute. It is well known that SN operates many charter flights for TCAB (HQ): should the figures be reckoned in the HQ share or in the SN share of the airport activity?
André
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RoMax
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Re: Brussels airlines future and financial perspective

Post by RoMax »

sn26567 wrote: One reason why the charter figures are not divulged is that they might be difficult to compute. It is well known that SN operates many charter flights for TCAB (HQ): should the figures be reckoned in the HQ share or in the SN share of the airport activity?
From a business/economical point of view yes, but purely operational you should include them for the airline actually operating the flight. SN itself of course has clear data about this, but they don't publish it because in essence it's not part of their own operational performance, which is what it's all about with this monthly published data. But that doesn't change the fact that I would like to know these numbers as well :mrgreen:
Last edited by RoMax on 16 Dec 2014, 18:13, edited 1 time in total.

Inquirer
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Re: Brussels airlines future and financial perspective

Post by Inquirer »

Flanker2 wrote:Like I said earlier, this is a temporary bubble in traffic, caused by low fares out of BRU.
The fact lower fares stimulate demand is a well known fact, but I fail to see why it would be temporary?
It's fairly weird that you seem to think price driven growth isn't sustainable at BRU,whereas the very same phenomenon is what has been boosting CRL for many years, despite it being pretty much the very same passengers causing it at both venues?
Is it because BRU is still more expensive to operate from than CRL? Maybe people are finding the tickets offered out of BRU very good value for money these days, whereas they didn't before despite them still being a fair bit more expensive than those from CRL (but less than before)? As I've said a few times before: yoo needn't be the cheapest around for most people, you need to offer the best value for money!
Another aspect which you seem to neglect: if you look at the statistics for BRU, the transfer market is booming too, so it's not like they are just fishing in the Belgian pond alone, which makes it easier.
And finally, when talking about the Belgian pond, BRU and CRL are very much communicating vessels of course. In this perspective, it's interesting to note how quiet they have gone In CRL, which may indicate they aren't doing as great as before on their ambitious growth plans, suggesting that this bubble as you call it, may in fact be nothing more but the natural annual growth of Belgian aviation, this time consolidated at BRU and shared over ALL companies operating there, rather than -as we have become used to- materialised at CRL and by just the few airlines operating from there. :!:

Allow me to say your comments are turning ever more sour as the year goes by and results roll in:
from your predicted massive passenger cutbacks, obviously nothing has come, that much is a fact now;
the doomy financial consequences of the expansionary price driven stategy they are following in contrast are clearly not happening either if we are to believe the reports;
and now oil prices have plummeted too which will -if protracted for a few Qs- have a very beneficial additional effect on their cost structure and thus ultimately also financials projected forward.

I'd reiterate what I said a couple of months ago: their outlook is looking better and better as time goes by (for all airlines at BRU, btw), so the chances of them fading away soon are close to zero by now.
BTW- unrelated to this topic, but how's your Russian Bear doing as of lately? That's another great SWOT analysis of yours that went out of the window, didn't it? You seem to have a nose for betting on the wrong horse, sir! No wonder you are able to make some money with guess what: put options, excuse me for this little practical joke. :D

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tolipanebas
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Re: Brussels airlines future and financial perspective

Post by tolipanebas »

RoMax wrote:
sn26567 wrote: One reason why the charter figures are not divulged is that they might be difficult to compute. It is well known that SN operates many charter flights for TCAB (HQ): should the figures be reckoned in the HQ share or in the SN share of the airport activity?
From a business/economical point of view yes, but purely operational you should include them for the airline actually operating the flight. SN itself of course has clear data about this, but they don't publish it because in essence it's not part of their own operational performance, which is what it's all about with this monthly published data. But that doesn't change the fact that I would like to know these numbers as well :mrgreen:
These numbers do fluctuate depending season and go as high as an extra 50,000 pax/month in summer.
However, SN26567 is right: apart from the incentive flights and the sport clubs (Red Devils, RSCA etc) they are in essence Club Med's, Thomas Cook's or other's pax.
BTW- as a general rule, the statistics only include passengers flown on own metal flights: half a million SN ticket holders fly on one of our LH group sister airlines (LH, OS, LX) or on an A++ transtatlantic joint venture flight (UA, AC) from BRU and yet they are not included here either. ;)
The opposite is true too of course: it's just the way this is done by pretty much everybody, as it makes comparisons easy and correct.
Last edited by tolipanebas on 17 Dec 2014, 11:27, edited 1 time in total.

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RoMax
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Re: Brussels airlines future and financial perspective

Post by RoMax »

tolipanebas wrote: BTW- as a general rule, the statistics only include passengers flown on own metal flights: half a million SN ticket holders fly on one of our LH group sister airlines (LH, OS, LX) or on an A++ transtatlantic joint venture flights (UA, AC) from BRU and yet they are not included here either. ;)
The opposite is true too of course.
Yes I understand that, as it's about operational data so pax (cargo) actually flown on scheduled flights of SN. But my remark/question was only about the volume of charter passengers from a purely operational point of view, which are indeed flown for another company and so it's logical SN doesn't include them in their published monthly operational data. But I just wanted to have an idea of the number of pax flown on charters, so thank you for that answer.

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tolipanebas
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Re: Brussels airlines future and financial perspective

Post by tolipanebas »

Iin summer season, depending the exact period, 2 to 3 A319/A320 fly a full charter program on a daily basis, hence the large additional pax volume...

Flanker2
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Re: Brussels airlines future and financial perspective

Post by Flanker2 »

@Inquirer

It's temporary because it's not sustainable.
Who wouldn't buy a BRU-FCO return for 35 euro's, as sold by FR? That in itself generates demand.
But how long can they continue to offer this fare? They can't be making any money, and not only FR.

Similarily, even though you say that the outlook looks better and better, you still don't realise that SN is far from being out of the woods. Traffic numbers by themselves are meaningless, even though I expected less growth in November.

I'm surprised that SN has mad it this far. I was covinced that the winter of 2012 was going to be tough to survive. I didn't expect the governments to be so supportive, given how they left Sabena to die.
However, I don't see what is going to bring SN back to profits.

Sure, oil is cheaper. But a 40% cheaper oil barrel usually means only a 20-30% cheaper jet A1.
Also, given the mitigating factor of hedging, I doubt that SN will see any significant benefits until 2016.
In addition, the cheap Euro forms a risk for any company that has a significant USD exposure.
1 EUR is at 1.24 USD today, and Draghi is going to QE it soon, so that the Euro is probably going to fall even deeper, causing an effect similar to the recent drop of the Russian Ruble.

RTM
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Re: Brussels airlines future and financial perspective

Post by RTM »

Off coarse you are surprised they made it this far... but with your logic, the whole world must seem surprising from time to time...

The thing is, for SN it is easier to sustain the low fares, because they don't fill the whole plane at those tickets. A considerable amount of tickets is sold at higher service standards, and thus higher prices. An income level that LCC's don't have, hence their efforts to get a foot between the door of buisness pax. Wich in its turn is proof to me that the LCC formula is the one that is not sustainable in the long run.

But... you off coarse will nog agree, and try to mistify everybody with some mumbojumbo why you are allways right. Ah well... I don't care.

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Established02
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Re: Brussels airlines future and financial perspective

Post by Established02 »

Flanker2 wrote:Draghi is going to QE it soon, so that the Euro is probably going to fall even deeper, causing an effect similar to the recent drop of the Russian Ruble.
I don't know what kind of impact that a QE will possibly have on the EUR, however I want to remind you that Bernanke has been doing QE with the USD, not once, not twice, but even for "infinity" with QE3 ... and that did not seem to have weakened the USD (for now). But then again, I don't expect so see any clear and consistent principles at work on these currency markets as they are so prone to speculation and (hidden) manipulation.

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MD-11forever
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Re: Brussels airlines future and financial perspective

Post by MD-11forever »

Flanker2 wrote: In addition, the cheap Euro forms a risk for any company that has a significant USD exposure.
1 EUR is at 1.24 USD today, and Draghi is going to QE it soon, so that the Euro is probably going to fall even deeper, causing an effect similar to the recent drop of the Russian Ruble.
Given that the probability of additional QE by the ECB is quite significant, markets already priced this in to a certain extent. Therefore, the actual announcement of additonal QE (and its implementation) will have a weakening effect un the EUR, but it will not crash as you predict. The comparison of the EUR with the RUB is like comparing apples and oranges. The reason for the drop of the RUB is totally different than the weaking of the EUR.

Also, to compare:
The EUR lost around 10% against the USD in 2014
The RUB lost around 65% against the EUR in 2014

And finally, even at the height of the EUR crisis in 2009-2010, the EUR "only" lost around 20% against the EUR. Additional QE by the ECB will only have a limited effect (a couple of %), but not even close to the crash of the RUB.

Inquirer
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Re: Brussels airlines future and financial perspective

Post by Inquirer »

Well, it's far beyond the scope of this topic, but just a little word on the "QE the ECB style", because as usual I should sadly say, flanker tries to sing a song without knowing the lyrics very well.

The ECB will most probably decide to a limited form of QE in Q1 next year, but contrary to the US FED, its going to have to be limited in time and volume, if only to please the Germans (notably Karlsruhe).
Draghi has repeatedly hinted at the size of any QE to be expected by explicitly referring to the ECB's balance sheet of summer 2012, when the eurocrisis what at its hight.
As such, given the fact the ECB has meanwhile also rolled out other liquidity programs (I will save you the abbreviations of all those tools), the remaining portion of 'pure' QE is not going to be what the FED has been doing and the markets are already taking an advance on it today, so contrary to whay flanker hopes for, the euro is obviously not going to sink through the floor because of it for the simple reason the balance sheet of the ECB is not going to be let to grow beyond what it was in summer 2012.
What can be expected is a modest weakening which in turn and over time, will help stimulate our export.
Finally, it is worthy of mentioning that any euro weakening right at a time when oil prices have litterally plummeted, is relatively painless for airlines as the largest chunk of their dollar costs is oil of course.
At its worst, it'll shave off a bit of the savings they'll make on their lowered oil bills. ;)


Which leads me to another thing, which I have pointed at a few times already and is very present here once more: i.e. the surprisingly ease at which flanker decides to factor in -or completely ignore- certain elements depending on whether they have a positive outcome in his not surprisingly alway wrong analysis.
in this context, it is interesting to note how last year he was claiming a less than 10% fluctuation in fuel price yielded an almost immediate improvement of the financial result (something I vehemently opposed), whereas this year's plummeting oil prices will -dixit flanker- have no effect whatsoever next year?!
If you want a demonstration of somebody cherry picking elements to fit his story and to bend the truth till it matches his take on the matter, read the posts made by him in this topic around this time last year!
It's very interesting to say the least, not just to read the completely wrong preditions for 2014 he then made, but also the very weird financial logic behind them (which he has now completele reversed, btw).

You know flanker, even a stopped clock is bound to be right 2 times a day, yet you have changed position on the financial effects price fluctuations have, exactly when you shouldn't have.
Maybe my explanation on hedging and the effects modest price fluctuations have on them was pretty convincing back then after all, not only to all the others here, but also to you, but in this case you really should have kept position as you are going to be shown wrong again now given the magnitude and pace of this year's drop, meaning the theory of small variations isn't applicable here, I can already tell you!
As said before: you really seem to have a nose for betting on he wrong hore, sir!
It's really amazing! :D

One would hope that you draw conclusions from this and try to do as most professionals do, i.e. refrain from making solid (and in hindsight completely wrong) predictions on the result, but merely give guidance as to the direction they are seen to be heading, something you may have noticed is exactly what I always limit myself to. The assumption as to whether this guidance of mine which is increasingly pointing in one direction means they may be out of the woods like you seem to be fearing for, is of course entirely yours, and yours alone. 8-)

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Re: Brussels airlines future and financial perspective

Post by airazurxtror »

Flanker2 wrote: Who wouldn't buy a BRU-FCO return for 35 euro's, as sold by FR? That in itself generates demand.
But how long can they continue to offer this fare? They can't be making any money, and not only FR.
In my experience, a Ryanair BRU-FCO return for 35 euros is not easy to find; best I have found of late is 46,90 euros, and at that price, better grab it at once, or others will take it; the whole plane isn't at that price, you know - the prices rise progressively as the seats are sold (I guess).
IF IT AIN'T BOEING, I'M NOT GOING.

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sn26567
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Re: Brussels airlines future and financial perspective

Post by sn26567 »

airazurxtror wrote:In my experience, a Ryanair BRU-FCO return for 35 euros is not easy to find; best I have found of late is 46,90 euros, and at that price, better grab it at once, or others will take it; the whole plane isn't at that price, you know - the prices rise progressively as the seats are sold (I guess).
I just bought a BRU-FCO day return ticket on RYR for 2*17.99€ two days ago. And that price was available for a number of dates in January. Of course that is not sustainable with BRU airport taxes at 28€, RYR is loosing a lot of money on each ticket sold (even more than if the seat remained empty). What's the purpose of such a sale? Try to find new customers? Obviously I wouldn't have gone to Rome if I hadn't found such a low price. Which means that SN is right in not trying to match such fares.
André
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Lysexpat
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Re: Brussels airlines future and financial perspective

Post by Lysexpat »

sn26567 wrote:I just bought a BRU-FCO day return ticket on RYR for 2*17.99€. What's the purpose of such a sale? Try to find new customers? Obviously I wouldn't have gone to Rome if I hadn't found such a low price. Which means that SN is right in not trying to match such fares.
Market share, and new customers indeed. You wil see there is in fact no difference between the cheap SN fares and the even cheaper FR ones. Quite the opposite for a little extra you can sit in the front with Ryan, be out of the aircraft faster and catch an earlier train. This is impossible if you travel SN cheap. Next time you will pay almost the same price as SN for a FR flight.
A while ago, I predicted 9,99€ fares before the end of 2015, we are getting there!

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Re: Brussels airlines future and financial perspective

Post by Established02 »

I just bought a BRU-FCO day return ticket on RYR for 2*17.99€
Central Station >< BRU = 17 EUR by train

BRU><FCO = 36 EUR by air

FCO><Termini train station = 28 EUR by train

FR is highly profitable. Both railroad companies are expectedly making heavy losses.
Maybe one day the LCC model can also be applied in the railway world.

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sn26567
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Re: Brussels airlines future and financial perspective

Post by sn26567 »

Established02 wrote:FCO><Termini train station = 28 EUR by train
11 EUR by bus, purchased on the RYR website...
André
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jan_olieslagers
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Re: Brussels airlines future and financial perspective

Post by jan_olieslagers »

Maybe one day the LCC model can also be applied in the railway world.
Not before the operators of infrastructure can be made to be competitors.
And then I don't even mention our cherished unions - the railways are their last big stronghold, in Belgium.

Stij
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Re: Brussels airlines future and financial perspective

Post by Stij »

jan_olieslagers wrote:Not before the operators of infrastructure can be made to be competitors.
We're off topic here, but... I tend to disagree...

The liberalization of the freight market has been done, and major other operators have emerged. They badly hurt NMBS Logistics.

About liberalization of the domestic pax services:

The question is not if it will be done, but how...

Or the UK version where (a) line(s) is leased to an operator who's responsible for everything, including income as well. The operators generally don't pay for the operation of the trains, they get money.
Or the NL version where secondary lines are operated by private companies who are just responsible for the operation. They get fully paid for the operation of the trains.
Or the DE version where a few private operators are cherry picking on major routes and are applying the LCC model http://www.hkx.de.

I think in Belgium cherry picking domestically will be very difficult as only 3 lines are actually economically viable: Brussels to Gent, Antwerp and Leuven.

About liberalization of international pax services:

Has been done, and DB came close to competing with Eurostar between Brussels and London and Amsterdam.

Just a matter of time!

Cheers,

Stij

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Re: Brussels airlines future and financial perspective

Post by jan_olieslagers »

Sorry Stij, I did not express doubt about more train operations going to private venture (which is indeed sure to happen) but rather about applying the LCC model to rail (passenger) transport.

But I had not heard of the HKX initiative - I doubt, though, if such a concept could ever be conceivable in Belgium.

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