What about trying on 121.5, or relaying from other planes?
Anybody knows how long or how many missed calls it took for the fighters to be sent?
Anyway, if it's a callsign confusion, I can better understand.
SN aircraft intercepted by French Rafale last June
Moderator: Latest news team
-
FlightMate
- Posts: 390
- Joined: 15 Mar 2007, 14:39
Re: SN aircraft intercepted by French Rafale last June
The real problem is fatigue! Pilots are working more and more these days, so fatigue related incidents like this one happen more and more.
Even if he was confused about his callsign he should have heart the repeated calls on ATC frequency and 121.5. If you think you are SN 12345 and you hear ATC calling HQ 12345 for 10 minutes you will realise at a certain point.
Pilot fatigue is a big problem in todays aviation and it should not be brushed under the carpet.
Even if he was confused about his callsign he should have heart the repeated calls on ATC frequency and 121.5. If you think you are SN 12345 and you hear ATC calling HQ 12345 for 10 minutes you will realise at a certain point.
Pilot fatigue is a big problem in todays aviation and it should not be brushed under the carpet.
Re: SN aircraft intercepted by French Rafale last June
I'm really having a hard time swallowing that callsign story. We need a safer procedure, maybe inspired by the trains safety systems, to avoid pilots falling asleep.
Re: SN aircraft intercepted by French Rafale last June
What we need is shorter duty times and not longer ones as voted by the EU recently.convair wrote:We need a safer procedure, maybe inspired by the trains safety systems, to avoid pilots falling asleep.
Under these new rules standby and duty can last for up to 24 hours.
-
AirOpinion
- Posts: 119
- Joined: 11 Feb 2013, 18:38
Re: SN aircraft intercepted by French Rafale last June
Fact is that a lot of pilots don't take their rest as they should and that is in my opinion the main cause for fatigue incidents.
It's easy to blame this callsign incident to fatigue. However I believe not knowing your callsign is just stupidity.
It's easy to blame this callsign incident to fatigue. However I believe not knowing your callsign is just stupidity.
Re: SN aircraft intercepted by French Rafale last June
Without entering the EU rules dispute, I believe it is safe to say such incidents can happen whatever these rules are, so why not put some procedure/system in place?
-
B.Inventive
- Posts: 79
- Joined: 19 Nov 2010, 19:08
Re: SN aircraft intercepted by French Rafale last June
Some people seem to forget that they also have a social life, i.e. a family at home demanding their time too, which is logic.
Never forget sleep deprivation due to cycling biorhythms is really hard to overcome on a short period of time. It takes a long time to recover from a few nights lost sleep due to the alternating work cycle pilots are put on.
The only protection in the law right now in belgium, would be that pilots should have a minimum rest period of 12hrs between flights.
The idea is that the work time on its own is not the real causal factor, the switching between early and late is.
And contrary to what people may think, this is not the same in all companies.
Fatigue is a real threat to aviation and the bean counter should be more aware of it. They may start by accepting some reputed scientific research made by some very clever guys (with input from both operators and crewmembers) and translating this into a new legislation. Instead of focussing on legislation covering short term spans they should instate a more thorough long term monitoring set of rules too, to prevent pilots from becoming fatigued and putting a boundary between when pilots ARE negligent in resting when needed or when company operations actually do not allow proper resting. (on top of having an actual social life)
This pilot may have made an error, but the event is a CHAIN of errors made on both the part of the crew, but mostly by the company for allowing fatigue to become an issue here. (and this in combination with a different callsign, maybe some other stress factors which lay on that pilot's shoulders...)
And about that callsign issue:
it is in fact a very subtle thing.
I ask all of you to try calling your wife by a different name tomorrow and see how many times you will fail to do so, also try asking your wife to call you (whenever you are not standing next to her or in sight of her, radio remember...) by another name. The name you know, but subconsciously you will not as easily make that connection.
It may seem like a benign and easy task but it takes actually quite some effort and discipline... Now what happens when people are fatigued?... right...
(not I am not talking about sleepiness in its own, I am talking about fatigue which is a more severe concept.)
Never forget sleep deprivation due to cycling biorhythms is really hard to overcome on a short period of time. It takes a long time to recover from a few nights lost sleep due to the alternating work cycle pilots are put on.
The only protection in the law right now in belgium, would be that pilots should have a minimum rest period of 12hrs between flights.
The idea is that the work time on its own is not the real causal factor, the switching between early and late is.
And contrary to what people may think, this is not the same in all companies.
Fatigue is a real threat to aviation and the bean counter should be more aware of it. They may start by accepting some reputed scientific research made by some very clever guys (with input from both operators and crewmembers) and translating this into a new legislation. Instead of focussing on legislation covering short term spans they should instate a more thorough long term monitoring set of rules too, to prevent pilots from becoming fatigued and putting a boundary between when pilots ARE negligent in resting when needed or when company operations actually do not allow proper resting. (on top of having an actual social life)
This pilot may have made an error, but the event is a CHAIN of errors made on both the part of the crew, but mostly by the company for allowing fatigue to become an issue here. (and this in combination with a different callsign, maybe some other stress factors which lay on that pilot's shoulders...)
And about that callsign issue:
it is in fact a very subtle thing.
I ask all of you to try calling your wife by a different name tomorrow and see how many times you will fail to do so, also try asking your wife to call you (whenever you are not standing next to her or in sight of her, radio remember...) by another name. The name you know, but subconsciously you will not as easily make that connection.
It may seem like a benign and easy task but it takes actually quite some effort and discipline... Now what happens when people are fatigued?... right...
(not I am not talking about sleepiness in its own, I am talking about fatigue which is a more severe concept.)
Re: SN aircraft intercepted by French Rafale last June
You can't forget your own callsign. You use it for departure clearance, push-back, taxi, take-off and every 5-10 minutes after that. Even if you forget it, 10 minutes of insistance will remind you.
Even more so if it wasn't their first flight of the day.
Also, doesn't ATC usually also call your registration when you don't answer after several calls, just to make sure that it's not a callsign problem?
Finally, when a fighter jet is rocking its wings next to your aircraft and you don't react, how do you explain it? Too busy listening at what happened to that Thomas Cook aircraft?
An intercepting aircraft will usually come on the captain's side.
That's how the military pilot saw that the captain was sleeping.
In the meanwhile, precious minutes are lost if it's a 9/11-style attack or a MH17-style hi-jacking or an emergency on board.
Better be safe than sorry, that's what those fighter jets are for.
You can put some blame on the pilots, as they should not fly if they feel fatigued.
But obviously one needs to look at fatigue as one of the human factors. Does SN have 7-3 rosters or do they still have that 9-3 roster as well?
That's pretty heavy IMO, especially if you have to start out early in the morning.
I don't agree with the non-event comment of Sean.
Even though the FMS will take the aircraft to destination, it becomes an issue when something happens.
For instance, an aircraft flying higher in opposite direction that has to make an emergency descent can become a very real threat if the pilots can't react immediately to a TCAS RA.
It takes time to regain situational awareness and sometimes those few seconds can be the difference between life and death.
Similarily, any major equipment failure can put the aircraft in danger by the time the pilots regain situational awareness. If there were any signs of something starting to go wrong, those will not be detected, hence making it more difficult for pilots to gain full situational awareness.
What we learn here is not only how aircraft should not be flown, but also how PR shouldn't be done.
A good PR would say: "We highly regret this incident and will make sure it doesn't happen again. The affected passengers will receive a coupon for a free return flight, anywhere on our network".
Last but not least, once again, if you're fatigued, you shouldn't fly.
If it gets you fired, so be it.
That means that either you are not made for that job or your airline doesn't care about safety, as fatigue is an important element of it.
Being able to go to sleep at 7 p.m. to get up at 3 a.m. is part of the job.
A pilot job is not all glamour.
As I say: To be a good pilot on an aircraft, you need to be a monk at home...
Even more so if it wasn't their first flight of the day.
Also, doesn't ATC usually also call your registration when you don't answer after several calls, just to make sure that it's not a callsign problem?
Finally, when a fighter jet is rocking its wings next to your aircraft and you don't react, how do you explain it? Too busy listening at what happened to that Thomas Cook aircraft?
An intercepting aircraft will usually come on the captain's side.
That's how the military pilot saw that the captain was sleeping.
What can SN operations do even if the French ATC call them?Should the French ATC have not first contacted SN Operations before sending a fighter?
Just a question.
In the meanwhile, precious minutes are lost if it's a 9/11-style attack or a MH17-style hi-jacking or an emergency on board.
Better be safe than sorry, that's what those fighter jets are for.
You can put some blame on the pilots, as they should not fly if they feel fatigued.
But obviously one needs to look at fatigue as one of the human factors. Does SN have 7-3 rosters or do they still have that 9-3 roster as well?
That's pretty heavy IMO, especially if you have to start out early in the morning.
I don't agree with the non-event comment of Sean.
Even though the FMS will take the aircraft to destination, it becomes an issue when something happens.
For instance, an aircraft flying higher in opposite direction that has to make an emergency descent can become a very real threat if the pilots can't react immediately to a TCAS RA.
It takes time to regain situational awareness and sometimes those few seconds can be the difference between life and death.
Similarily, any major equipment failure can put the aircraft in danger by the time the pilots regain situational awareness. If there were any signs of something starting to go wrong, those will not be detected, hence making it more difficult for pilots to gain full situational awareness.
What we learn here is not only how aircraft should not be flown, but also how PR shouldn't be done.
A good PR would say: "We highly regret this incident and will make sure it doesn't happen again. The affected passengers will receive a coupon for a free return flight, anywhere on our network".
Last but not least, once again, if you're fatigued, you shouldn't fly.
If it gets you fired, so be it.
That means that either you are not made for that job or your airline doesn't care about safety, as fatigue is an important element of it.
Being able to go to sleep at 7 p.m. to get up at 3 a.m. is part of the job.
A pilot job is not all glamour.
As I say: To be a good pilot on an aircraft, you need to be a monk at home...
Re: SN aircraft intercepted by French Rafale last June
Thanks B.Inventive, it's good to see that common sense has returned here, because people were digging very deep in their daily anti Brussels Airlines bashing:B.Inventive wrote:Some people seem to forget that they also have a social life, i.e. a family at home demanding their time too, which is logic. Never forget sleep deprivation due to cycling biorhythms is really hard to overcome on a short period of time. It takes a long time to recover from a few nights lost sleep due to the alternating work cycle pilots are put on. The only protection in the law right now in belgium, would be that pilots should have a minimum rest period of 12hrs between flights.
The idea is that the work time on its own is not the real causal factor, the switching between early and late is. And contrary to what people may think, this is not the same in all companies.
Fatigue is a real threat to aviation and the bean counter should be more aware of it. They may start by accepting some reputed scientific research made by some very clever guys (with input from both operators and crewmembers) and translating this into a new legislation. Instead of focussing on legislation covering short term spans they should instate a more thorough long term monitoring set of rules too, to prevent pilots from becoming fatigued and putting a boundary between when pilots ARE negligent in resting when needed or when company operations actually do not allow proper resting. (on top of having an actual social life)
This pilot may have made an error, but the event is a CHAIN of errors made on both the part of the crew, but mostly by the company for allowing fatigue to become an issue here. (and this in combination with a different callsign, maybe some other stress factors which lay on that pilot's shoulders...)
And about that callsign issue: it is in fact a very subtle thing. I ask all of you to try calling your wife by a different name tomorrow and see how many times you will fail to do so, also try asking your wife to call you (whenever you are not standing next to her or in sight of her, radio remember...) by another name. The name you know, but subconsciously you will not as easily make that connection. It may seem like a benign and easy task but it takes actually quite some effort and discipline... Now what happens when people are fatigued?... right... (note I am not talking about sleepiness in its own, I am talking about fatigue which is a more severe concept.)
Nobody here seems to know exactly what has been said and what has not been said to the passengers on that 28th June (almost four months ago). And more important: nobody here seems to know what really happened in that cockpit four months ago. But yet, the crew and the PR-office from Brussels Airlines are both blamed. It's sooooo obvious, Flanker. I even don't call it a hidden agenda anymore. Het zit gewoon in uw genen.Flanker2 wrote:What we learn here is not only how aircraft should not be flown, but also how PR shouldn't be done. A good PR would say: "We highly regret this incident and will make sure it doesn't happen again. The affected passengers will receive a coupon for a free return flight, anywhere on our network".
-
airazurxtror
- Posts: 3769
- Joined: 17 Nov 2005, 00:00
Re: SN aircraft intercepted by French Rafale last June
The spokesman for SN, Greet Scott, was on duty tonight for the comments on the french-speaking news.
On RTL-TVI, he seemed to say (his french is not very good) that none of the pilots were asleep.
On RTBF, same and also he told the reporter that no sanction had been taken against the pilots, they only were "sensibilised" to the problem ...
Anyway, these pilots were lucky not to have pulled that trick on an easyJet flight, for instance. Their escape would probably have been less easy !
On RTL-TVI, he seemed to say (his french is not very good) that none of the pilots were asleep.
On RTBF, same and also he told the reporter that no sanction had been taken against the pilots, they only were "sensibilised" to the problem ...
Anyway, these pilots were lucky not to have pulled that trick on an easyJet flight, for instance. Their escape would probably have been less easy !
IF IT AIN'T BOEING, I'M NOT GOING.
Re: SN aircraft intercepted by French Rafale last June
I'm pretty reasonable here, compared to some comments on hln.be.
Most out of the 65 comments are negative, only one is positive.
And I didn't post any of those, nor do I know who they are:
Also, doesn't ATC usually also call your registration when you don't answer after several calls, just to make sure that it's not a callsign problem?
Finally, when a fighter jet is rocking its wings next to your aircraft and you don't react, how do you explain it? Too busy listening at what happened to that Thomas Cook aircraft?
An intercepting aircraft will usually come on the captain's side.
That's how the military pilot saw that the captain was sleeping.
Most out of the 65 comments are negative, only one is positive.
And I didn't post any of those, nor do I know who they are:
Street
Brussels Airlines opdoeken de leugenaars.
jvdokus
Brussels Airlines ontkent: "De copiloot van dienst heeft niet gereageerd op de oproepen, omdat hij dacht dat de verkeersleiding een ander toestel wilde bereiken." Wat een onnozele uitleg. Brussels Airlines beschouwt ons werkelijk als debielen
Also, doesn't ATC usually also call your registration when you don't answer after several calls, just to make sure that it's not a callsign problem?
Finally, when a fighter jet is rocking its wings next to your aircraft and you don't react, how do you explain it? Too busy listening at what happened to that Thomas Cook aircraft?
An intercepting aircraft will usually come on the captain's side.
That's how the military pilot saw that the captain was sleeping.
Last edited by Flanker2 on 22 Oct 2014, 10:47, edited 1 time in total.
Re: SN aircraft intercepted by French Rafale last June
No matter if I agree with you (it's rare, but it happens) or not, just don't use HLN to prove your point. 99% of the people commenting there don't have any valuable knowledge to make such statements, if they would have the knowledge, they wouldn't waste their time commenting on HLN.beFlanker2 wrote: I'm pretty reasonable here, compared to some comments on hln.be.
Most out of the 65 comments are negative, only one is positive.
And I didn't post any of those, nor do I know who they are:
And also here, we don't know the full story as long as we didn't read the full investigation report and even then, so who are we to judge...
It's quite obvious that this was a human error of an SN pilot. I don't think SN is giving the whole story in the media and is trying to 'protect' their pilots, I don't know if that's such a good idea. On the other hand, it can be a way to show to the pilots (with which the management doesn't always have such a good relationship) that they support them (up to a certain level of course). 'The public' will forget about this incident quite fast, but pilots will remember the position taken by SN as a company to either protect or condemn 'their pilots' (although this incident involved just 2 of them) in the media.
Re: SN aircraft intercepted by French Rafale last June
Couldnt agree more with that Romax!
Re: SN aircraft intercepted by French Rafale last June
I think that it could send the wrong message.RoMax wrote:It's quite obvious that this was a human error of an SN pilot. I don't think SN is giving the whole story in the media and is trying to 'protect' their pilots, I don't know if that's such a good idea. On the other hand, it can be a way to show to the pilots (with which the management doesn't always have such a good relationship) that they support them (up to a certain level of course). 'The public' will forget about this incident quite fast, but pilots will remember the position taken by SN as a company to either protect or condemn 'their pilots' (although this incident involved just 2 of them) in the media.
I'm also pretty certain that many pilots within SN who take their job seriously also don't approve of this incident, because it only makes them look bad.
Not only to the passengers who board the aircraft, but also to their wives who'll start saying: "I didn't know you could sleep during your flights. Then you shouldn't be so tired that you can't help me with laundry".
So those other pilots would not be happy to see management stand behind them. Who wants to do laundry anyway?
-
Pocahontas
- Posts: 184
- Joined: 27 Oct 2012, 15:26
Re: SN aircraft intercepted by French Rafale last June
Thanks Flanker2 for your contribution to this forum.
Re: SN aircraft intercepted by French Rafale last June
Well he was helped by the comments on hln.be, always a good sourcePocahontas wrote:Thanks Flanker2 for your contribution to this forum.
Re: SN aircraft intercepted by French Rafale last June
I agree with you that we don't know the full story. But then, why do you also say "it's quite obvious that this was a human error of an SN pilot"?RoMax wrote:... And also here, we don't know the full story as long as we didn't read the full investigation report and even then, so who are we to judge...
...It's quite obvious that this was a human error of an SN pilot. I don't think SN is giving the whole story in the media and is trying to 'protect' their pilots.
If that co-pilot did not know his call sign, strange that no such incident happened during the Brussels-Lanzarote leg. So let's wait for a more official source then a newspaper report, shall we? Maybe there was an input error in Spain or France with the call sign?
Let's not forget that the previous newspaper report on a spectacular near-crash from a BRU-inbound flight (no SN) turned out to be completely false (the Indian aircraft, "suddenly loosing 5,000ft" over Turkey).
Re: SN aircraft intercepted by French Rafale last June
So what are you saying? ATC suddenly changed their callsign?? 
-
Pocahontas
- Posts: 184
- Joined: 27 Oct 2012, 15:26
Re: SN aircraft intercepted by French Rafale last June
Honnestly it happened to me too once that they had to call me several times. Even if I knew my call sign. Sometimes one is distracted by other things. Looking at charts, reading OM's, FCOM's to look something up.
Re: SN aircraft intercepted by French Rafale last June
Just to point out that I post the comments on hln.be to show the perception of the public relative to the PR of SN or in other cases.
Not to use them as sources, but to get a feel of what the public are commenting on the PR and general opinions. Obviously posting of them only makes sense if most comments reflect a common view, a sample of the public's perception.
I hence think that I shouldn't get critiques every 2 minutes about this.
Regarding FO sleeping/not sleeping:
Media aren't allowed to write claims that can't be verified, as it makes them susceptible to being sued. HLN wrote that a source close to the case said that the FO also got asleep, so...
Not to use them as sources, but to get a feel of what the public are commenting on the PR and general opinions. Obviously posting of them only makes sense if most comments reflect a common view, a sample of the public's perception.
I hence think that I shouldn't get critiques every 2 minutes about this.
Regarding FO sleeping/not sleeping:
Media aren't allowed to write claims that can't be verified, as it makes them susceptible to being sued. HLN wrote that a source close to the case said that the FO also got asleep, so...