Malaysia B772 flight MH17 AMS-KUL downed near Donetsk, Ukraine

[Passenger]

There is a new update from the Dutch Safety Board. Actually, not about the crash, more about the way the investigation is done.

At this moment, the update is only available in Dutch, but an English translation will follow soon:

http://www.onderzoeksraad.nl/nl/onderzo ... lucht-mh17

[mooney058]

At the very beginning a rebel commander admitted to have shot down the aircraft, thinking it was a military plane. Remember?

Actually he didn't say "I have show down" nor "we have show down". He said that somebody has shot down a Malaysian Boeing.

But did he really say something like that? Russia Today has given the proof already that those audio's were fake. The "official time lapse of the recordings" differs on the Russian and the English version, meaning it's fabricated proof. There was no conversation like that.

what 'proof' did russia today provided to russian soldiers of 'not'-being present in Crimea? a country invades another country and invader's controled media presents 'proof' - get a life

[Passenger]

At the very beginning a rebel commander admitted to have shot down the aircraft, thinking it was a military plane. Remember?

Actually he didn't say "I have show down" nor "we have show down". He said that somebody has shot down a Malaysian Boeing.

But did he really say something like that? Russia Today has given the proof already that those audio's were fake. The "official time lapse of the recordings" differs on the Russian and the English version, meaning it's fabricated proof. There was no conversation like that.

what 'proof' did russia today provided to russian soldiers of 'not'-being present in Crimea? a country invades another country and invader's controled media presents 'proof' - get a life

Seems this is a bit too much off topic.

Perhaps a moderator can move your post to "Luchtzak Pub" - we then can discuss it there.

[mooney058]

Perhaps a moderator can move your post to "Luchtzak Pub" - we then can discuss it there.

[/quote]

You draw conclusions about the circumstances of the accident using "reliable" sources, just pointing to that.

[Passenger]

There is a new update from the Dutch Safety Board. Actually, not about the crash, more about the way the investigation is done.

At this moment, the update is only available in Dutch, but an English translation will follow soon:

http://www.onderzoeksraad.nl/nl/onderzo ... lucht-mh17

Questions and answers about the investigation - now in English:

http://www.onderzoeksraad.nl/en/onderzo ... light-mh17

[regi]

There is a new update from the Dutch Safety Board. Actually, not about the crash, more about the way the investigation is done.

At this moment, the update is only available in Dutch, but an English translation will follow soon:

http://www.onderzoeksraad.nl/nl/onderzo ... lucht-mh17

Questions and answers about the investigation - now in English:

http://www.onderzoeksraad.nl/en/onderzo ... light-mh17

Hold on, I just read this:

5. Why has the Dutch Safety Board not yet visited the crash site?
The Dutch Safety Board was not abled to visit the crash site because the safety of the investigators could not be guaranteed. The Dutch government believes that people investigating the causes of the crash will be at greater risk than forensic investigators, next of kin or journalists.

So if the Dutch Safety Board concludes they are unable to do their task, should they not have given the responsability back?
It would be interesting to find out why they conclude this.

[Passenger]

At 15h23, a MASkargo 747-400F 9M-MPS took off from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur: a cargo flight with adapted flight number "Malaysia Airlines" MH-6129.

Twenty Malaysian victims from MH-17 are now repatriated home. On request from Malaysia, no ceremony was held in the Netherlands, as this is foreseen in Kuala Lumpur on Friday, after arrival. The Malaysian king will be at the airport.

[convair]

So if the Dutch Safety Board concludes they are unable to do their task, should they not have given the responsability back?
It would be interesting to find out why they conclude this.

Now, let's try and be consistent here. All neutral people want an independant and neutral investigation. Do you think we would get that if the investigation is handed over back to the Ukrainian authorities?

[regi]

So if the Dutch Safety Board concludes they are unable to do their task, should they not have given the responsability back?
It would be interesting to find out why they conclude this.

Now, let's try and be consistent here. All neutral people want an independant and neutral investigation. Do you think we would get that if the investigation is handed over back to the Ukrainian authorities?

I don't think so.
Reading the report shows that the investigation has been transfered to the Dutch. But can we still regard the Dutch as independant? Besides of the many Dutch victims, I refer to their interests NATO-EU-investments in Ukrain agriculture- strategic oil& gas supplies from Russia etcetera.
The problem is that every report the Dutch bring forward could be overshadowed by their political agenda. Even if that DSB is 100% sincere. But even I, a small worm from under a small Belgian stone start to question their sincerity because they concluded that they were not able to perform their task.
So if I ask questions, what if really big guys shovel any report aside?

[Passenger]

Two Dutch authorities are leading the two investigations:

The aviation investigation is led by the Onderzoeksraad voor de Veiligheid / Dutch Safety Board. This investigation only looks for "what happened / what caused the crash".
http://www.onderzoeksraad.nl/en/onderzo ... -july-2014

The second investigation is the criminal case. This is led by the Dutch Openbaar Ministerie (Public Prosecutor) and the Dutch Police. They regard the investigation as a murder case.
http://www.politie.nl/onderwerpen/flight-mh17.html
and
http://www.om.nl/algemene_onderdelen/ui ... echtelijk/

The question was : are they both reliable? Yes, no doubt, and I haven't seen or read any counter-indication here yet. At the contrary: in the annual corruption perception index from Transparency International, The Netherlands scored 8th best overall (Belgium 15th). This score proofs that Dutch authorities are immune for whatever outside pressure.

The only unreliable factor in the Netherlands is politics: minister Frans Timmermans, Foreign Affairs. He stated from the beginning that Russia was responsible for the crash. Without proof, without indication.

[globetrotter]

At 15h23, a MASkargo 747-400F 9M-MPS took off from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur: a cargo flight with adapted flight number "Malaysia Airlines" MH-6129.

Twenty Malaysian victims from MH-17 are now repatriated home. On request from Malaysia, no ceremony was held in the Netherlands, as this is foreseen in Kuala Lumpur on Friday, after arrival. The Malaysian king will be at the airport.

Photos:

https://m.ak.fbcdn.net/sphotos-f.ak/hph ... 2103_o.jpg

https://fbcdn-sphotos-g-a.akamaihd.net/ ... 8503_n.jpg

[Flanker2]

Vladimir Putin and Petro Poroshenko shook hands as talks between the Eurasian Customs Union, EU and Ukraine began in Minsk. The crisis in eastern Ukraine is likely to dominate the agenda, with Poroshenko calling on the forum to accept his peace plan.

Kiev’s bloody eastern Ukraine campaign LIVE UPDATES

Putin and Poroshenko greeted each other with a handshake as they met in the Belarusian capital at the start of talks on the Ukrainian crisis.

In the opening statement, Russia's president said that Moscow is interested in not only maintaining its cooperation with Ukraine, but even expanding it.

However, Putin expressed doubt that the two countries will be able to achieve this goal in case of Kiev’s association with the European Union gets enacted. Moscow will be forced to implement countermeasures if this happens, he added.

“We do not want to discriminate against anybody,” he said. “We are simply going to implement a standard trade regime regarding Ukraine – the same, which is used in relations between Russia and the EU.”

http://rt.com/news/182776-putin-meeting ... oroshenko/


Basically, it looks like Putin has let Poroshenko vent as much as he wanted, only to remind him now that Russia still has a wild card to play: the trade game.

Ukraine's industry relies heavily on exports and cooperation with Russia. The EU has not supported Ukraine and it's unlikely that Ukraine can find industrial partners in the EU. Language barriers, industry consolidation and ongoing conflicts will make it very difficult for Ukraine to join its forces with the EU.

IMO Ukraine can't switch partners overnight without going through a catastrophic and long process. The country is already on the verge of financial collapse, so I think that for now they have no choice but to work with Putin.

I think that this game was already played when Putin annexed Crimea.
He knew that Ukraine will then come begging at Russia for help and they would have no other choice.
The EU and the U.S. are shouting, but they're not showing the money or any solutions to the rebel conflict.
Russia is offering a solution for both.

Putin actually gets things done. Our EU politicians talk, talk, talk, but things only go from bad to worse.
We're now heading towards a third recession in the EU, without any resolution in sight, courtesy of Obama and Di Rupo and their friends who imposed unilateral sanctions on Russia using MH17 as an excuse.

Yes, it now seems clear that MH17 was the needed excuse to impose sanctions on Russia, which punishes our own hard-working fruit and vegetable workers much more than they will punish Putin for whatever they say he did (remind me what that is by the way?).

If there is intelligent life out there in space, they will have a good laugh at the apes that we are.

[Flanker2]

In the aftermath of MH17 and the ensuing sanctions, it's now becoming really clear who benefits from this event. The Belgian public is furious about the cancelled harvest of fruits and vegetables, which will be left to rot:
http://www.hln.be/hln/nl/942/Economie/a ... t#reaction

Not only will it be left to rot, but the government is going to support that by giving subsidies.
It looks like the government is going to make us pay to buy our vegetables at higher prices.

The EU's sanctions against Russia are just stupid.
Russia has sufficient land to grow their own fruits and vegetables. The EU is sending them a message to start doing it themselves Great message.

In the next chapter, they're going to create a new major event to escalate it even further. The same way they had 9/11 for Afghanistan, and WMD's for Irak. MH17 was big, but not big enough. Another staged war, but this time they're going after the big fish...

[flightlover]

In the aftermath of MH17 and the ensuing sanctions, it's now becoming really clear who benefits from this event. The Belgian public is furious about the cancelled harvest of fruits and vegetables, which will be left to rot:
http://www.hln.be/hln/nl/942/Economie/a ... t#reaction

Not only will it be left to rot, but the government is going to support that by giving subsidies.
It looks like the government is going to make us pay to buy our vegetables at higher prices.

The EU's sanctions against Russia are just stupid.
Russia has sufficient land to grow their own fruits and vegetables. The EU is sending them a message to start doing it themselves Great message.

In the next chapter, they're going to create a new major event to escalate it even further. The same way they had 9/11 for Afghanistan, and WMD's for Irak. MH17 was big, but not big enough. Another staged war, but this time they're going after the big fish...

That fruits and veggies are rotting because they can not be exported is the consequence off the Russian sanctions against Europe. Which are, indeed, imposed in reaction to the Eu sanctions vs Russia.
So wake up please, and start reading things like they are.

And Btw: The Russians can stop their charade off 'not helping the resisting forces in Ukraine'. They swapped 10 Russian parachutists for 63 Ukrainians. (http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-29002147) Though, truth be told, the Russians are still denying they entered Ukrainian territory on purpose.

[Passenger]

And Btw: The Russians can stop their charade off 'not helping the resisting forces in Ukraine'. They swapped 10 Russian parachutists for 63 Ukrainians. (http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-29002147) Though, truth be told, the Russians are still denying they entered Ukrainian territory on purpose.

Strange: the 10 Russian soldiers entered Ukrainian territory on purpose, but the 63 Ukrainian soldiers entered Russian territory NOT on purpose. Fact is that there is no pointed border there - hence the unvoluntary crossing from both sides.

I also don't like your description "10 parachutists", as this suggests that they were dropped above Ukrainian territory. They were not: it was a border patrol on foot.

Let's hope that the investigation into the crash is more neutral.

[flightlover]

And Btw: The Russians can stop their charade off 'not helping the resisting forces in Ukraine'. They swapped 10 Russian parachutists for 63 Ukrainians. (http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-29002147) Though, truth be told, the Russians are still denying they entered Ukrainian territory on purpose.

Strange: the 10 Russian soldiers entered Ukrainian territory on purpose, but the 63 Ukrainian soldiers entered Russian territory NOT on purpose. Fact is that there is no pointed border there - hence the unvoluntary crossing from both sides.

I also don't like your description "10 parachutists", as this suggests that they were dropped above Ukrainian territory. They were not: it was a border patrol on foot.

Let's hope that the investigation into the crash is more neutral.

Under the pictures in the article there is one last remark being made: "The 63 Ukrainian soldiers released were said to have entered Russia to escape the upsurge in fighting last week."

This is a total different angle than a patrol with, to be expected, trained soldiers with map reading skills crossing a border. Especially if the reported distance is correct (20 km) and they did not have the added stress of being hunted.

And yes, parachutists might imply they where dropped over Ukrainian territory. However I have never stated that and in the article I linked to, it is explained they where part of a patrol that accidentally crossed the border.

And I will once more put my last sentence to good use: Though, truth be told, the Russians are still denying they entered Ukrainian territory on purpose.

[Flanker2]

That fruits and veggies are rotting because they can not be exported is the consequence off the Russian sanctions against Europe. Which are, indeed, imposed in reaction to the Eu sanctions vs Russia.
So wake up please, and start reading things like they are.

So according to you, who started this whole va-et-viens of sanctions?

It's obvious that Russia are supporting the rebels in the region.
However, it's obvious that the aggressor is the Ukrainian military who are attacking the Eastern cities despite calls to stop the fighting and resolve the issue diplomatically.

I personally think that this is going too far now. Civilian bodies are laying on the streets of Eastern Ukraine, mostly killed by the shelling of the Ukrainian government. The rebels are acting in defense of themselves and the local population. They can't stop fighting because then the Ukrainians will come in and take-over, without offering any diplomatic solution.

Kiev is acting like they are victims, but it's not like the rebels are marching into Kiev.
The oh so patriotic government has already destroyed many of the industries in the region, with no money to rebuild it. The revoluton took place in Kiev but the majority of Ukrainians living outside Kiev still favor a partnership with Russia.

We are already seeing an invasion of Polish, Romanian, Bulgarian, Slovenians construction and agricultural workers while the meat we see on our tables is coming from Romania and our companies are competing against Polish ones who will do the same job for less money.

I invite you to visit the many vegetable farms in the Mechelen area. Many of the worker's cars parked outside the greenhouses have Eastern European number plates. I invite you to check out hotel cleaning staff, whom are increasingly Eastern European.

The point I want to make is not that I don't like these people, who also need to make a living. However, it's my position that our ancestors worked hard for our standards of living in Western Europe. So if those countries want to achieve development, they should do it by themselves in their own countries, by working hard. Not by taking away our jobs and competing against us.

The job situation is already quite dramatic in our countries. Europe went into the Ukrainian revolution ill-prepared and without looking at the human disaster that is happening now. If Ukraine joins the EU, the economic disaster in the EU will be of unseen proportions, while Ukraine will empty itself of its best workers, halting its own development.
Europe was already in panic mode for Greece's debt. Well, Ukraine is a bigger country in far worse shape now.

Remember that tomorrow, your job could be lost to a Ukrainian worker who will work much harder for the same money, or less. And it doesn't matter whether you're a cook in a restaurant, a bar tender, a security guard, a pilot, a stewardess, an engineer, or an accountant.
Your job could also be lost completely, as car factories are transferred, consultancy, IT and online retail firms in those countries do the same job for less money.

Just look further than the tip of your nose and realise the impact to yourself!

[Passenger]

Another 9 Malaysian victims have been repatriated from The Netherlands to Malaysia on Tuesday, including the pilot and co-pilot.

http://www.telegraaf.nl/binnenland/2303 ... sie__.html

[flightlover]

Flanker2, please, stick to the issue at hand.

Though I agree with a lot off the issues you are talking about, they have little or nothing to do with the conflict that is going on in Ukraine.

They may enter the Shengen area and have the liberty to settle or work in the whole EU-area.
They might enter the Euro-monetary union. But all that will take some years.
For now they will be entering in free-trade treaties and maybe the EU-parliament.

Hopefully before they enter as a full member, some off the obvious flaws in EU-legislation (that you mentioned) will be rectified.

But that said, does that justify the way Russia is handling the situation today? In my opinion: no.

[mooney058]

flanker, here you go again ... You somehow manage to employ tactics usualy employed by russian authorities - now the one which is being used alot is make allies distrust each other - your go at eastern europeans, employ scaremongering .... History is a hot topic, lets keep it aside as it is not the purpose of this forum, right?

I hope you can read this testimony here, to have a better informed opinion: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1nLd ... true&pli=1