Malaysia B772 flight MH17 AMS-KUL downed near Donetsk, Ukraine

[Passenger]

Ukraine says ceasefire at MH17 crash site still in force

Ukraine's government said today (Friday) that the ceasefire with separatist rebels at the crash site of Malaysian airliner MH17 was still in force despite an announcement that it would be suspended until recovery work there resumed.

It did not explain why the government said on Thursday that the ceasefire was being suspended following a decision by an international team of experts to halt recovery efforts there because of continued fighting.

The pro-EU government army from Kiev has launched non precision Grad rockets near the crash region. That is why the OSCE advised the Dutch, Australian and Malaysian investigators to withdraw from the crash site. The non-elected president in Kiev, who orders his army to blindly bomb his own citizens with non precision rockets, clearly proofs with today's statement that he is totally unreliable.

The BBC has even photo's from those blind bombings of unarmed citizens:
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-28707018

See also:
http://rt.com/news/178948-russia-block- ... e-ukraine/

[Passenger]

All Dutch, Australian and Malaysian forensic searchers arrived in Eindhoven, the Netherlands, on Friday. Because of the intensified fighting and blind bombings near the crash site ànd near their previous residence in Donetsk, it's estimated that it's too dangerous for them to stay in Eastern Ukrain.

The forensic searchers confirmed that local residents handed over personal belongings and even human remains they had collected soon after the crash. Seems they did it in good faith.

http://www.telegraaf.nl/feed/22945539/_ ... _NL__.html

Meanwhile, a Russian proposal to call for an immediate ceasefire in Eastern Ukrain by the United Nations Safety Council was rejected by the USA, Lithaunia and Australia. This means that it remains impossible for the Onderzoeksraad voor de Veiligheid (Dutch Safety Board) to investigate what's left from the Boeing 777.

http://rt.com/news/178948-russia-block- ... e-ukraine/

[mooney058]

Passenger, why do you transmit "news" in RU propaganda style? This is what you get from masters? It resemblers RU news in ru language so much that it makes we wonder. What is your quota of posts a day?

[Passenger]

Passenger, why do you transmit "news" in RU propaganda style? This is what you get from masters? It resemblers RU news in ru language so much that it makes we wonder.

I'm just giving facts, related to MH-17. Feel free to give other facts. But facts please, not statements like those from Marie Harf, spokeswoman U.S. Department of State for MH-17, when she goes in discussion with Matthew (Matt) Lee, senior reporter Associated Press:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nqPCejH3mTM



In the above Youtube you hear Marie Harf repeatedly say "we know that the "pro-Russian separatists have SS11" (= the Buks). I conclude two possibilities about those repeated U.S. statements:

1. Marie Harf is right: they knew it. But then, why didn't the USA strongly advised ICAO to close Ukrain airspace? Why did the USA allowed hundreds of civilian aircraft to fly above 6 km, thus within range of those Buks missiles? If the USA knew that the rebels had Buk's, their silence about that is criminal negligence.

2. Marie Harf lies: the "pro-Russians separatists" did not have Buks. But then, who shot down MH-17? The most obvious then is one of the three Ukrain Su-25 jets (as reported by the Spanish ATC working in Kiev, on Twitter, BEFORE MH-11 crashed). Another possibility is an error during "Sea Breeze", the joint Ukrain-USA annual exercise, which happened to take place this year from... 10-17 July 2014.

(I personally think that the USA were sure that that rebels had no Buks. The CIA is in Ukrain since April, so their drones know every square inch of Eastern Ukrain by now)

You can see the story about the Spanish ATC in the next Youtube. It's a quite long one, and actually I don't believe all the arguments brought up in that movie (like the 7's-link). But his report about the Spanish ATC working in Ukrain and the proof about the falsified "intercepted conversation just after the crash" are firm.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YFlGLqiDogA


And finally, and off topic actually: indeed, I call them "anti-Kiev rebels" and not "pro Russia separatists". Because they are not separatists. They do not want to cut Eastern Ukrain from Ukrain and attach it to Russia. At the contrary even: they want to remain Ukrain citizens. But they also want more powers for their region. And another important factor: for most people in Eastern Ukrain, their mother language is Russian. But in February 2014, the Poroshenko goverment from Kiev has cancelled Russian as official language in Eastern Ukrain. Hence their hatred against Poroshenko and Kiev. Imagine what would happen if the Flemish majority in Belgium's federal parliament would cancel French and German as official languages...

[mooney058]

I can not agree with you, you are not 'just giving facts', rather political judgements and 'labels' - it is not the purpose of this forum, but you have to do your 'job', so I am not under illiusion you will stop. No mater what you publish as materials you are given, the boat has sailled or the plane had departed ... You publish lots of bullshit, and that is the purpose of it, make people wonder and believe 'facts' you provide. Same about the language - its total BS, but it is not the topic of this thread. Keep on trying, everyone has to do their "job"... Just a shame that MH 17 tragedy is used for such shamefull purposes.

[b-west]

Sorry Mooney058, but I don't think you're in the position to accuse anybody on this forum here of being in the pockets of this or that party. You've only registered on this forum to post in this thread, constantly blasting other users. If anybody has an agenda for posting here then it's you. (Apart from our resident troll who'll just take any opportunity to create a controversy)

[mooney058]

B-west, I am a follower on this forum because i Previously had fear of flying, since then I was reading with keen interest because I found most threads interesting. I finally registered and started posting when I could no longer agree with a propaganda and false political information given on this forum. Some users are troll, some might be more than that. On the matter little to do with the thread, erroneous ''interpretations' are constantly fed on here and also other places - they all have many similarities in style and message. As former homo-sovieticus, I can recognise the style and the "message", I do not enter into discussions on details simply because this is not the topic, but tags "pro-EU' Kiev etc are made on purpose - but what does it mean? People in UA overthrew the criminal president imposed by the corrupt RU leaders, RU media tells lies to its own people, then 'facts' are being presented here as given on here. Of all the things in my life I hate cheaters and liars. RU propaganda might be more advanced than the american one, i do not mind RU propaganda lying to RU people, unfortunately they successfully export that elsewhere. I am just amazed by the scale of it. I can not enter into discussions on these not related matters on this thread, thus i am reacting to the posts with political messages in it.

[Passenger]

B-west, I am a follower on this forum because i Previously had fear of flying, since then I was reading with keen interest because I found most threads interesting. I finally registered and started posting when I could no longer agree with a propaganda and false political information given on this forum. Some users are troll, some might be more than that. On the matter little to do with the thread, erroneous ''interpretations' are constantly fed on here and also other places - they all have many similarities in style and message. As former homo-sovieticus, I can recognise the style and the "message", I do not enter into discussions on details simply because this is not the topic, but tags "pro-EU' Kiev etc are made on purpose - but what does it mean? People in UA overthrew the criminal president imposed by the corrupt RU leaders, RU media tells lies to its own people, then 'facts' are being presented here as given on here. Of all the things in my life I hate cheaters and liars. RU propaganda might be more advanced than the american one, i do not mind RU propaganda lying to RU people, unfortunately they successfully export that elsewhere. I am just amazed by the scale of it. I can not enter into discussions on these not related matters on this thread, thus i am reacting to the posts with political messages in it.

I've pointed out in my previous post why I indeed use "anti-Kiev rebels" and not "pro-Russian separatists", and I'm not going to repeat that.

Furthermore, would be great that you reed (and respect) the forum rules:
https://www.aviation24.be/rules/

[mooney058]

same applies to you - letter B, for your info

[Passenger]

Update in the Dutch press:

The Dutch police has released a report on their week of intensive search. And it’s quite dissapointing: in total, the forensic teams were only 20 hours at the crash site, so they have only searched 3,5 km² of the total of 60 km² with debris.

The Dutch police also states that the initial search by local residents was done much better than first thaught (“professioneler en zorgvuldiger”). One example: local residents had collected and well stored all human remains and personal belongings in the greater area. These were handed over to the Dutch teams.

Alexander Hug, leader of the OCSE mission in Ukrain, told German Press Agency DPA that it’s too dangerous to continue the search at this moment because of intensified struggle. “But the situation changes hourly”, he added. This means, unfortunately, that the aviation experts from the Dutch Safety Board (Onderzoeksraad voor de Veiligheid) so far have been unable to inspect debris.

Source : De Telegraaf NL. There is map with the searched area in this article:
http://www.telegraaf.nl/binnenland/2294 ... cht__.html
Green = searched by the International team
Red = access denied
Orange = unsafe area

[Flanker2]

CNN now posting a report on the propaganda war raging between media from both sides.
In so doing, they unfortunately criticise Russian media as being unreliable and tightly controlled by government, which also shows that they're not impartial.

http://edition.cnn.com/2014/07/22/world ... le_sidebar

[b-west]

Well. The Russian media is largely government controlled and not much more than a government mouthpiece. So I don't see where the impartiality lies.

[Passenger]

Well. The Russian media is largely government controlled and not much more than a government mouthpiece. So I don't see where the impartiality lies.

U.S. news blog, hence reliable:
http://www.infowars.com/u-s-admits-its- ... dia-posts/

[b-west]

Your point? I've never accused the US media of being neutral or impartial.

[Passenger]

Your point? I've never accused the US media of being neutral or impartial.

My point? That, so far, it's impossible to state who has shot down MH-17. And even a bomb onboard remains a possibility, with what we know so far.

[Flanker2]

Me and Passenger never agree in other threads, yet here we do.
So something is really not right here. Some will see it, some will refuse to see them.

@Mooney: I don't really mind you posting your point of view, it's just that you're getting too emotional, as is apparent from the insults. This is not normal behavior, but perhaps that's who you are, we never talked so.

What I know about you is that you have chosen a very remarkable username.
In the U.S., Mooneys are seen as the high performance single engine aircraft by excellence, while GA pilots don't talk so much about it in Europe. Many don't know they exist except for a rare breed of veteran GA affiscionado's.

[Passenger]

The government in Kiev has resolved the crash. The “respected head” (cfr Daily Mail) of the Ukraine intelligence service says that the rebels meant to shot down an Aeroflot from Moscow to Larnaca "because that would have given Russia a reason to invade Ukrain”. But that the rebels were so stupid that they’ve placed the BUK in the wrong town: the system was transported “from Russia” to Pervomaiskoe east of Donetsk, instead of Pervomaiskoe west of Donetsk. The “evidence” has been given to the Dutch-led team leading the investigation into the crash, The Daily Mail reports.

Source:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... rvice.html

Gladly taken over by De Telegraaf:
http://www.telegraaf.nl/binnenland/mh17 ... ng___.html

Flightradar, AFL2047 on 17th July:
http://www.flightradar24.com/data/fligh ... 4/#3d62ed7

[regi]

shooting down a Russian airplane ( with a Russian president on board...) by an Ukrainian BUK system has been an option from the beginning

Oh well, we are still waiting for evidence of BUK shrapnell on bodies and/or airplane parts.

On the other hand, Russia has urgent matters on its hand: shelter > 500,000 refugees before winter time.

[Passenger]

shooting down a Russian airplane (with a Russian president on board...) by an Ukrainian BUK system has been an option from the beginning.

Indeed - but it was thought that the Ukrain army wanted to shoot down Poetin and errorly shoot down MH-17. No proof for that theory though.

Today the Ukrain government and Ukrain Intelligence (...) tell something totally different: "the rebels wanted to shoot down a Russian civilian aircraft". This is pure nonsense. Why would the rebels take such extremely high risk? The Buk (SS11) is not a rocket launcher that one unpacks from of a suitcase: it's a system that needs 4 vehicles (launcher, commando, radar, transporter) and is therefore easy to spot for satellites and drones, and for road observers.

Off topic: Russia has no plans to invade and/or take over Eastern Ukrain because Poetin knows that this would cause a worldwide boycot of Russia. Unlike Krimea, Eastern Ukrain has no Russian submarine naval base.

[mooney058]

Me and Passenger never agree in other threads, yet here we do.
So something is really not right here. Some will see it, some will refuse to see them.

@Mooney: I don't really mind you posting your point of view, it's just that you're getting too emotional, as is apparent from the insults. This is not normal behavior, but perhaps that's who you are, we never talked so.

What I know about you is that you have chosen a very remarkable username.
In the U.S., Mooneys are seen as the high performance single engine aircraft by excellence, while GA pilots don't talk so much about it in Europe. Many don't know they exist except for a rare breed of veteran GA affiscionado's.

Thanks for the professional consultation and diagnosis, you do appear to know me in person and spot it correctly that I am a very emotional person I m sorry if you feel insulted, are you? No need, I trust in my assessment of the situation and I believe I understand the purpose of your posts, it is just that most of the times I can not see value in your posts other than retransmitting of what Mr putin wants people to hear - why is that? N Korea also barks at US and west a lot, this is not to say i trust all what US or its media has to say, but why would I trust the guy who runs North Korea? Would you?