VIDEO: Eindhoven "bodies-flight", Ryanair didn't read NOTAMS

[stratofreighter]

...well, at least this Ryanair-captain wasn't aware yesterday...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=92GBT_HknHY

EDIT: "bodies-flight" is indeed a bit "coarse" , but this description is rather clear.
It concerned this flight by a Dutch AF C-130:
http://www.luchtvaartnieuws.nl/nieuws/c ... -even-stil

[andorra-airport]

He diverted to Weeze. http://www.flightradar24.com/data/fligh ... 2/#3fc1655

[Lysexpat]

Strato, can you post the notam?

[Mirror]

Well they report landing at 1535, I dont know about the notam but according to the article the airport closes at 1545... Technically they were before.

[Inquirer]

Excuse my ignorance, but what exactly is a NOTAM? Is it some kind of temporary rule?

Anyway, I wonder why those pilots argued so hard?
if the airport controller tells you the airport is closed, why not just accept that and wait or land elsewhere?

It's a syndrome of our generation that when a superior orders you to do something, rather than say :"yes sir", people prefer to start a discussion about the reasons for it and then arrogantly complain if those reasons doesn't seem valid to them. Have we become so arrogant we just can't cope with the concept that sometimes a decision made to the benefit of the public may hinder us personally?

[Mirror]

NOTAMs are notices to pilots("Notice to Airman") regarding airfields or airspace, they are to be checked before the flight, can contain many things like this ceremony, but also restrictions like reduced airfield facilities, works in progress,... In this case there must have been a NOTAM explaining that there would be a ceremony and the airfield will be closed, I wonder though what times were mentioned. If it was 15:45 in the notams then they should have been allowed to land, otherwise some pilots didn't read their flight documentations properly!

[Bracebrace]

It's a syndrome of our generation that when a superior orders you to do something, rather than say :"yes sir", people prefer to start a discussion about the reasons for it and then arrogantly complain if those reasons doesn't seem valid to them. Have we become so arrogant we just can't cope with the concept that sometimes a decision made to the benefit of the public may hinder us personally?

ATC is not our "superior", they provide a service to us (crew and passengers who in the end all pay for it) and they have to play by the rules. If the notam stipulates closed at 45, every crew/company will consider the possibility to make this time. If not, the flight will probably be delayed from the start. Know that they might have pushed passengers to speed up, flew faster, or any other possibility, to try to make the official time of 45. If ATC last minute decides to change this, EVERY crew will complain.

And this has nothing to do with the respect that this crew will probably have for the victims of the MH flight. it is simply how aviation works.

[sean1982]

Indeed. If a notam advises a closure at 45 then you don't close 10 min before that. It is completly unacceptable.

[Lysexpat]

It looks like the title of this topic is not correct dear stratofreighter! :thumbdown:
They did read the notams stating the airport would close at 1545, but were not allowed to land at 1542, which lead to a rant of the Ryanair pilot.
That said, how many pages could we fill by reporting people having a rant because they were not allowed to enter the local shop three minutes before closing time...

[tolipanebas]

They did read the notams stating the airport would close at 1545, but were not allowed to land at 1542, which lead to a rant of the Ryanair pilot.

In which case they are dead wrong, Lysexpat, because AD closed at 1545 does not mean you can land up to 154459, it means all planes on the AD must be well parked at their final position with engines off at 154500, full stop.

Especially given the nature of the ceremony about to start, it's pretty obvious people attending wouldn't be very pleased with some noisy ryanair plane taxying by, spitting out a load of holiday makers who'd be pulling out their Iphones to take pictures of the event while walking by in short and t-shirt.

Rather than arrogantly rant about how inacceptable the situation is and stating they MUST land (which you only do if you declare a MAYDAY, btw), this crew better shut up, accept the fact that the AD was indeed closed and divert to their planned alternate since they didn't have enough fuel with them to wait it out, which is very strange thing to start with given their ETA being so close to the AD closure time...
probably too pre-occupied with loosing their fuel efficiency ranking, thus betting on the fact they could still squeeze in just before, right?.

[Nevihta]

Airport closes at 45 meaning probably nothing can move at that time.
If you land at 42 you most probably don't have time to taxi.
When your supermarket closes on the hour, they don't let anyone in 10-15 minutes before closure.

[Lysexpat]

In which case they are dead wrong, Lysexpat, because AD closed at 1545 does not mean you can land up to 154459, it means all planes on the AD must be well parked at their final position with engines off at 154500, full stop.

Two minutes taxi at Eindhoven is usually more than sufficient, so they could have been at the parking position at 1544, and that is what the rant was about, I think.

[sean1982]

They did read the notams stating the airport would close at 1545, but were not allowed to land at 1542, which lead to a rant of the Ryanair pilot.

In which case they are dead wrong, Lysexpat, because AD closed at 1545 does not mean you can land up to 154459, it means all planes on the AD must be well parked at their final position with engines off at 154500, full stop.

Especially given the nature of the ceremony about to start, it's pretty obvious people attending wouldn't be very pleased with some noisy ryanair plane taxying by, spitting out a load of holiday makers who'd be pulling out their Iphones to take pictures of the event while walking by in short and t-shirt.

Rather than arrogantly rant about how inacceptable the situation is and stating they MUST land (which you only do if you declare a MAYDAY, btw), this crew better shut up, accept the fact that the AD was indeed closed and divert to their planned alternate since they didn't have enough fuel with them to wait it out, which is very strange thing to start with given their ETA being so close to the AD closure time...
probably too pre-occupied with loosing their fuel efficiency ranking, thus betting on the fact they could still squeeze in just before, right?.

Not only that .... initially they were due to land at 34! .... but were allready denied landing at that point.
9 min at EIN is more than enough to taxi and shutdown ... so get your fact right before you try to be mr superior again.

[tolipanebas]

initially they were due to land at 34! .... but were allready denied landing at that point.
9 min at EIN is more than enough to taxi and shutdown ... so get your fact right before you try to be mr superior again.

AD closed means what it means: no more activity. Just what do you not understand about it?

Nothing about needing superior skills to understand that at all, just some common sense, yet the only common sense ryanair has it to systematically interpret rules and regulations in the strictest possible way whenever it suits them well, yet assume they are just a flexible guideline only whenever they may cause extra hastle...

[sean1982]

AD closed at 45 does not mean AD closed at 34 ... If you dont understand that you need coaching.

[Mirror]

Well the first time mentioned was 1534, you dont need 11 minutes to taxi in eindhoven to the stand... I can agree closed means also no taxi, but even then the airplane would be on the blocks before. Theres no interpretation about it if you deny landing to an airplane that could land and taxi before the notam starts. To wait it out would take an hour or more, economically it was probably better to divert as NRN is very near.
If the NOTAM started by 1545 they should have been allowed to land. The captain might be right but shouldnt have argued that much and just divert.

[Inquirer]

The captain might be right but shouldnt have argued that much and just divert.

Indeed, I don't know who's right here, but it seems to come down to just what you are expecting at the time of closure: if you want absolute silence like in the rest of the country, then indeed that flight couldn't possibly make it in on time as passengers would still be deboarding and activity would be happening around the plane, but whatever interpretation is correct here, I sit with Mirror: what's the point in arguing over a one off event for so long and trying to enforce yourself several times, at the end even with misplaced arrogance? Doesn't look very professional to me?

Especially the remark about not having respect for all the people onboard whereas ironically the airport was closed to pay tribute to the people who lost their lives in an air accident is not only uncalled for, but also hugely misplaced, even though I can understand (and hope) that Ryan Air crew wasn't fully aware of the reason for which this particular airport was closed, because then it is truely sickmaking even!

What's the point of it all, in the light of these extremely tragic events, I'd dare to ask?

[Stij]

After reading all these posts:

Both are wrong IMHO:

ATC: Why did the NOTAM say 15:45 if they wanted absolute silence at 15:45? They should have written 15:15 in the NOTAM to be sure all planes that arrive just before (as they are entitled to do) can be deplaned before 15:45!

FR crew: even if you're right, you don't talk like that to ATC.

Cheers,

Stij