Malaysia B772 flight MH17 AMS-KUL downed near Donetsk, Ukraine

[regi]

If the rebels have sofisticated surface to air missiles, why haven’t they been used before during all those months? The rebels have shot down just a few aircraft: they did it with gunfire or with shoulder-used missile launchers . If the rebels would indeed have Buks (or similar), not one single Ukrain helicopter would have been able to fly around for more then 2 minutes.

possible answers:

• they cost a lot, and there are not so many. If you fired the 3 or 4 missiles, depending on version, it takes a long time to reload. This means that there is a weak spot in your defence line for some time. The US used this tactic against North-Vietnam, to let them use as much SAM as possible, and than attack in large formations. ( to find out that the Viets had kept some as a surprise act against B-52 )
  it is sensitive equipment, and it does not always work perfectly and it needs maintenance.
  there are counter meassures, see point 1, for example a anti radiation missile could be fired on them. ( or long range artillery )

[sn26567]

Dutch and Australian experts reach the MH17 crash site in Ukraine after days of fierce fighting prevented access

International experts have reached the site of the flight MH17 crash in eastern Ukraine after the government halted military operations for a day.

A convoy of Organization for Security and Co-operation in Europe (OSCE) monitors arrived along with four Australian and Dutch police experts, escorted by a Ukrainian military vehicle.


Image: BBC

Ukraine also approves an armed international police mission at the MH17 crash site, allowing the deployment of up to 950 police. A team of 68 Malaysian police has arrived in Kiev to help with the investigation.

The police and forensic investigators from the Netherlands and Australia are expected to initially focus their efforts on retrieving bodies still missing and collecting victims' belongings.

Today, the Russian representatives will also try to reach the crash area of the Boeing 777 and together with specialists from the international investigative commission examine the state of parts of the aircraft at the site.

[Desert Rat]

Nice message from TG to MH

[Homo Aeroportus]

@ Homo A.: I don't really care, my assumptions are based on this map, that's exactly what it says on top of the post.
So you can tell WSJ that if they're going to publish a map, the most important thing is to get the scale right, but you can't tell me that I should check or not check, when my post says clearly "according to this map" on top.

You on the other hand, have posted IRRELEVANT (see below why) numbers ....

Well dude I'll leave the sand pit. It's all yours.

I know when to close a case when it is hopeless.

Errare humanum est, ..... perseverare diabolicum.

H.A.

[sn26567]

A team of 70 Dutch and Australian forensic experts has found human remains at the site of the flight MH17 crash in east Ukraine.

They made their discovery on their first full day of searching at the site, an area of some 35 sq km inside the conflict zone.

Local search parties found 227 of the 298 victims earlier and they were flown to the Netherlands for identification.

Fighting still rages, with 10 Ukrainian soldiers killed nearby on Thursday.

More from BBC: http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-28599315

[Passenger]

A team of 70 Dutch and Australian forensic experts has found human remains at the site of the flight MH17 crash in east Ukraine. They made their discovery on their first full day of searching at the site, an area of some 35 sq km inside the conflict zone. Local search parties found 227 of the 298 victims earlier and they were flown to the Netherlands for identification.

On Saturday, the Dutch and Australian teams and the OSCE were able to work another day at the crash site. Contrary to the four previous days, the pro-EU junta from Kiev indeed respected the ceasefire, agreed last Sunday. All investigators were safely conducted from Donetsk to the crash site by the anti-Kiev rebels (some call them “pro-Russian separatists”, but they're not: they want to remain Ukrain citizens).

On Sunday, the Dutch and Australian teams apparently will be joined by a Belgium team with two trained “search dogs” (my guess: from the BeFast teams). A new transport to Eindhoven with human remains and personal belongings is (provisionally) planned for Monday.

Fighting still rages, with 10 Ukrainian soldiers killed nearby on Thursday.

"...According to UN figures, at least 1.129 people have been killed and nearly 3,500 wounded in eastern Ukraine since the start of the operation in April. Also, 100.000 people have been forcibly displaced. The UN report said that the cause of the rising death toll is intensified artillery shelling of civilian residential areas and so-called “collateral damage” in heavily-populated areas...."

Source: RT.com. Photo’s and Youtubes about the terrible blind bombings of civilians by the pro-EU Ukrain army can be seen here:
http://rt.com/news/177488-ukraine-lugan ... lies-hurt/
http://rt.com/news/176676-humanitarian- ... n-ukraine/
http://rt.com/news/177552-eu-kiev-weapons-export/

[Flanker2]

It's clear that we're heading towards a second cold war.
Our economies are failling to restart, and when things are like this, war is the only solution.

WW1, WW2 and the cold war all followed a period of major economic weakness.
They were then both followed by a period of boom and growth.

These things go together.

I don't understand what's happening to Obama. He seemed like a cool guy, yet now he's talking like G.W.Bush II.
Unbelievable how a person can change: from Nobel Prize of Peace to war sollicitor.

[mooney058]

Flanker/passanger - you post what you were given by your pay masters? I know its your work, but pls, stop it, it is not effective.

[Flanker2]

The problem in your efforts Mr. Mooney is that people are not stupid enough anymore to believe that cr*p.
We live in a globalised world where there is no room for war. People just don't tolerate it anymore after so many unpopular wars have created more chaos than they have resolved problems.

The "silent wars" in Egypt and Lybia have "freed" their people. So much so that now they are free, but living in even more fear than they were before under their dictatorial leaders. Fear also restrcits freedom btw.

In Iraq, we're returning to chaos as Saddam was the only one who could keep the peace between the different religious and ethnic sections. It just doesn't work with an American puppet, sometimes you just need a hard fist, until there is sufficient stability to move on to a real democracy... Most European countries have gone through that process I remind you.

Obama's strategy has been "change from within" all along.
Lybia, Egypt, Tunisia, Yemen, Syria, Ukraine.... that's no coincidence. The civil war must be inspiring him as the "American way".
The problem is that all these countries are now more unstable than before the protests, yet our governments continue to endorse this kind of change.

Mr. Mooney, you keep contesting my arguments in favor of peace.
There is no room for discussion here, obviously war is your agenda.

I remind you that if we go to war with Russia, you and your sons will have to go to the front lines to fight...

[Bracebrace]

Saddam and peace in one sentence, lol. Dictatorship has a high price, and peace doesn't pay it. Blood pays it brilliantly.

[sn26567]

Back to topic please. We are not here to talk cold war, Irak, Lybia and so on. The topic is MH17.

[Passenger]

The Malaysian newssite New Straits Times, probably tipped off by a Malaysian investigator, writes that the CVR contents no remarks in the cockpit about an abnormality. "...So far, from what the team has heard, there was nothing unusual. The last voice heard was not the pilot’s. No, there was no indication that the pilots saw or sensed anything off...”, the source said without elaborating further to protect the investigations.

Think we will all agree with New Straits Times conclusion: "...This may mean that whatever happened was very sudden..."

Source for this unconfirmed rumour:
http://www.nst.com.my/node/19598

[Boeing767copilot]

Aeroflot Suspends Low-Cost Unit Flights After European Sanctions


http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-08-0 ... tions.html

[Passenger]

Another repatriation flight from Charkov to Eindhoven has been confirmed for Monday afternoon.

The Dutch Safety Board (Onderzoeksraad voor de Veiligheid) announces some delay for its first factual report. Several Dutch newspapers report that the Onderzoeksraad told them that it's not certain that this report will be ready by 17th August, one month after the crash.

[globetrotter]

Propaganda tool National Geographjc have started their new season of air crash investigation with the KAL007 incident and this is in Indian market once a stauch Russian friend.

[Passenger]

Work at the crash site didn't progress on Monday. Only around 14h30, the shootings and bombings in the vincinity ended. Only some personal belongings like photo's and passports have been recovered.

For the first time, also Malaysian investigators joined the Dutch and Australian teams.

[sn26567]

For the first time, also Malaysian investigators joined the Dutch and Australian teams.

Weren't there also Belgian investigators with sniffer dogs?

[Passenger]

Weren't there also Belgian investigators with sniffer dogs?

The Dutch newspaper NRC indeed confirms that there were sniffers dogs at the crash scene. Guess they are from the BeFast team.

But also today all investigators had to wait several hours near the crash site till the OSCE observers gave green light to move on to the crash site. So there was little time left, and therefore no human remains were found. They also limited the search to the town of Petropavlivka.

[Passenger]

The pro-EU Ukrain government has cancelled the ceasefire near the crash site, thus forcing all investigation teams to leave the scene.

Contrary to previous reports, the team from the Dutch Onderzoeksraad voor de Veiligheid / Safety Investigation Board was unable so far to visit the crash site.

An Australian C-17 will land in Eindhoven around 18h today, with only personal belongings. There will thus be no protocol and/or ceremony, and the goods will be handed over to the Dutch police.

Sources :

De Telegraaf and other Dutch media
http://www.telegraaf.nl/binnenland/mh17 ... _op__.html

and Russia Today's updates on the crash
http://rt.com/news/173628-malaysian-pla ... h-ukraine/

[sn26567]

Ukraine says ceasefire at MH17 crash site still in force

Ukraine's government said today (Friday) that the ceasefire with separatist rebels at the crash site of Malaysian airliner MH17 was still in force despite an announcement that it would be suspended until recovery work there resumed.

It did not explain why the government said on Thursday that the ceasefire was being suspended following a decision by an international team of experts to halt recovery efforts there because of continued fighting.