Malaysia B772 flight MH17 AMS-KUL downed near Donetsk, Ukraine

[sn26567]

OK, the first facts start to come in. The black box has been read out and it indicates a missile attack because of a very sudden cabin hull breach.

Or a bomb on board.

A bomb on board does not fit with the holes seen on the outside of the fuselage. Those holes indicate an explosion in the proximity of the plane corresponding to the normal working of a Buk SA-11.

Downing of Malaysian plane MH17 in east Ukraine may constitute "war crime", UN human rights chief Navi Pillay says. It is understandable that n ow (contrarily to minutes after the shooting) nobody wants to take responsibility any more.

[Passenger]

What I hate the most, is selective outrage (selectieve verontwaardiging).

During the first four days after the crash, the anti-Kiev rebels have been blamed by the international community and on all forums, including luchtzak.be, for their disrespect towards the victims. That the OSCE asked the rebels not to remove bodies was simply ignored by these pro-EU anti-Russia lobby.

But for two days on a row now, something else is going on. International investigators are near Donetsk, doing nothing. They wait till the Ukrain army ends its bombings near the crash site. Only when the Ukrain government forces implements a ceasfire, investigation teams can enter the crash site to collect the last remains and to start their investigation.

Where is the protest from the Netherlands, from Malaysia, from the USA, from Belgium against this attitude from the Ukrain government? Their selective outrage is shameful.

[Flanker2]

That's right Passenger and this is what has hit me the most from the beginning.

One day the media blame that the crash site is not accessible because of rebels, the other that no one is guarding the crash site. So which one is it?

It looks like Kiev is taking advantage of the distraction caused by MH17 to win territory in their battle, despite Poroshenko's promised 40km no-battle zone. In this light, it's really hard not to ask oneself whether MH17 wasn't part of an evil plan to regain control of this area.

In addition, an MH aircraft seems almost chosen for the task. Malaysia seems a very convenient target, can you figure why?

Andre, Donetsk is a 30 hour drive by car. Currently I can't abandon my affairs to go there but I truly wish I could, to really understand what is going on there.

[mooney058]

Flanker2, Passenger - did you go to the same school together I am so tempted to qualify your 'assessments' in words that would be deleted by mods, so I would not, but you get what I am getting at?

The so called 'rebels' are mostly from Russia and Chechnya. RU is continuing its war on a neighbour. You can not do an investigation when russian army and its mercenories are controling the area. In the magnitude of things, getting the bastards back to their 'glorious' motherland is very important. The war was not started because of MH17, it is just one tragic episode, so russian merconaries have to be pushed back.

rebiata, kak dela - vi sto tut vsiakuju gadost gonite? anuka marsh v budu - nepraidiot vasha prapaganda

[globetrotter]

Why is Malaysia a target? the ex-PM Mahatir in his blog has said CIA behind disappearence of MH370 and Boeing knows too.

[Inquirer]

Emirates will start avoiding Iraqi airspace as from now as they fear insurgents from ISIL may be able to shoot down a passenger jet too.

http://www.tijd.be/nieuws/politiek_econ ... 8-3466.art

[mooney058]

Why is Malaysia a target? the ex-PM Mahatir in his blog has said CIA behind disappearence of MH370 and Boeing knows too.

A former Putin's advisor provided a different view today - Malaysia was chocen on purpose according to him, also co-insided with the RU hate over 'rotten west' guys etc, possibly also a decision in The Hague Court of Arbitrage to award 50 BEUR from Russian state to Yukos shareholders ... Not my words, former ally of Putin suggesting this in a public debate/conference...

RU media shows people scared of war (this is more than understandable) fleeing to leave the conflict zone. While RU media is not reporting about the fleeing of more well-off and better educated Russian's from their own country ... RU nationalism, as any other before, will face the end, when people will realise they do not need to search for enemies in previously friendly nations (Georgia, Chechnya, Ukraine), but somewhere closer, much closer. How came such a great nation often end-up with short-siter leaders .... Again - it is the biggest and wealthiest (resource wise) country in the world, but look at the state of it - oligarchs buying out London and elsewhere, while the country is in shambles ... the problem, there is still too much to steel in Russia, that it is not certain if the next 'great leader' will be strong enough to resist the temptation and whether the corrupt bureaucrasy will allow RU state to modernise itself and finaly start living and carrying for its own citizens, and not stealing from them and then distracting with wars created outside and selling stories like 'look, they want to attack as and take away our riches and morrals ....'

[Flanker2]

Flanker2, Passenger - did you go to the same school together I am so tempted to qualify your 'assessments' in words that would be deleted by mods, so I would not, but you get what I am getting at?

Well Mooney, you must be part of some government censuring agency. Which country do you work for?

The so called 'rebels' are mostly from Russia and Chechnya. RU is continuing its war on a neighbour. You can not do an investigation when russian army and its mercenories are controling the area. In the magnitude of things, getting the bastards back to their 'glorious' motherland is very important. The war was not started because of MH17, it is just one tragic episode, so russian merconaries have to be pushed back.

Pardon me but Mr.Oleg Antonov, as in Antonov aircraft, was also a Russian who was transfered to Ukraine. Many Ukrainians have families in Russia, especially along the Ukrainian border where many people still retained their Russian nationality.

But who cares which nationality or origins they have?
Saddam killing Kurds was not ok but Ukrainians killing pro-Russian Ukrainians and local Russians in air strikes is ok?

Now that is very selective, don't you think?

In the meanwhile, Russia is thinking of forcing the McDonalds in its country down and today in the news, Belgian fruit producers are worried about counter-measures of the Russian sanctions as they export a large part of their production to Russia.

Until now I see the Russians as the pacifists while the west is exercising excessive pressure on them.
If they want East Ukraine, if they even do at all, which is debatable, why not let them have it?
The EU didn't give a damn about Ukraine until now, so why should they start now?

What is the benefit for the EU to have Ukraine?
Cheap land? Cheap labor (to use as slaves)? To direct missiles at Russia?

As for your criticisisms about the Russian leadership, I can assure you that if Obama or Di Rupo becomes president there, the country would fall apart in no time. Putin is doing a relatively good job keeping everyone in check and he's investing in his industries, including aircraft.

[Flanker2]

One more interesting fact from Wikipedia:

Russia Main export partners
Netherlands 14.6%
People's Republic of China 6.8%
Germany 6.8%
Italy 6.2%
Turkey 5.2%
Ukraine 5.2%
Belarus 4.7% (2012 est.)[16]


bbc.co.uk

So maybe it was really no coincidence that that particular flight was shot down.

The planets are starting to line up.

[mooney058]

But who cares which nationality or origins they have?
Saddam killing Kurds was not ok but Ukrainians killing pro-Russian Ukrainians and local Russians in air strikes is ok?

mister, you know what happens there or just guess? this is not the topic, but the 'assumptions' and accusations you make are serrious. Ukraine did not start the killings, it is their Government trying to regain control over its teriroty where hirer 'army' fights and putting UA flag from time to time firing at civilians. In order to believe RU propoganda, you should be mad

Now that is very selective, don't you think?

In the meanwhile, Russia is thinking of forcing the McDonalds in its country down and today in the news, Belgian fruit producers are worried about counter-measures of the Russian sanctions as they export a large part of their production to Russia.

Until now I see the Russians as the pacifists while the west is exercising excessive pressure on them.

are you for real?

If they want East Ukraine, if they even do at all, which is debatable, why not let them have it?
The EU didn't give a damn about Ukraine until now, so why should they start now?

What is the benefit for the EU to have Ukraine?
Cheap land? Cheap labor (to use as slaves)? To direct missiles at Russia?

this gives you away as a russian. EU wants to have peace at its borders and a country with which to do trade. Before the political and economic transition, UA was better off comparing to Poland. Look at the two countries together again - whould it not be better than UA would resemble Poland - economicaly, stability wise?

As for your criticisisms about the Russian leadership, I can assure you that if Obama or Di Rupo becomes president there, the country would fall apart in no time. Putin is doing a relatively good job keeping everyone in check and he's investing in his industries, including aircraft.[/quote]

you believe in this? I know you tried to 'sell' russian military airplanes on a different thread to Belgium - you get a commission from it? Putin doing a good job? Why don't you move to Russia and try to live there and then decide how good he has done? And visit not only Moscow, but elsewhere. Keeping 'in check' - you mean Magnitsky and other's killing who were trying to revela state level corruption? Is that your idea of law and order?

[Passenger]

Flanker2, Passenger - did you go to the same school together. I am so tempted to qualify your 'assessments' in words that would be deleted by mods, so I would not, but you get what I am getting at?

I can 't speak for flanker, but I inform myself from both sites: I read what the pro-Kiev pro-EU pro-USA press tells about both the crash, about Ukrain and about Russia. Actually, this means all western media. Fact is that all of them accuse the rebels, Russia or both. But I also verify western press reports on Russia Today tv and on articles with a link on http://www.rt.com . And most of the time, I’m shocked. Believe me, RT's counter poison works for me: it’s facts against accusations.

Let me give you some examples, without going too much into details:

"the transport back to Russia from the rocket launcher that shot down MH17": the location from those video shootage has been identified by local residents, upon the car dealer address on the billboard on that movie. The video footage was done 80 kms from the crash site and 120 kms away from the Russian border. So it was probably a Kiev army transport.

"the satellite photo from the Buk missile, photo from 14th July, near the crash site": RT has published a satellite photo from exactly the same source, 17 July a.m.: no rocket launcher anymore. The US State Department knew this, but yet they gave an outdated photo as proof.

"press reports with a rebel, showing a teddy bear as hunting trophee" : RT showed that the rebel indeed showed a teddy bear to the press. But the next seconds, the rebel bowed his head, removed his cap and made a sign of the cross. These images wee never shown on western media. Why? Because they contradict with "showing a hunting trophee": that’s expressing mercy with a child that’s killed. Western media only showed the rebel held up

US State Department, March 2014: “here are satellite photo’s of Russian troop movements towards the Ukrain borders”. Wait a moment: it was snowing at that time in Donetsk, so reporters investigated it. It appeared that the photo’s were from joint Russian and Ukrain army operations from August 2013.

“we have an audio in which the rebels confirm they shot down an civilian aircraft”. The transcript of that audio has been posted on Youtube. However, RT.com noticed that the "original time of the recording" on the Russian version differs from the "original time of the recording" on the English version. So it was fabricated proof.

For sure, Poetin is not a hero. But let’s admit that Obama isn’t either. May I remember that the NSA bugged even Merkel’s phone?

Anyway, to end with some straight on topic questions:

Are Ukrain governement troops at this very moment bombing the region where MH17 crashed, thus making it impossible for the Australian and Dutch forces (waiting in Donetsk) to recover the last remains and to start investigations? Yes.

Did the anti-Kiev rebels already signed a ceasefire with the Malaysian government last Saturday, allowing Australian and Dutch forces to recover the remains and start the investigation? Yes.

Is there one European politician or one western journalist who's outrageous that Ukrain today prohibits, for the second day in a row, that the last human remains can be recovered? No.

[mooney058]

Flanker2, Passenger - did you go to the same school together. I am so tempted to qualify your 'assessments' in words that would be deleted by mods, so I would not, but you get what I am getting at?

I can 't speak for flanker, but I inform myself from both sites: I read what the pro-Kiev pro-EU pro-USA press tells about both the crash, about Ukrain and about Russia. Actually, this means all western media. Fact is that all of them accuse the rebels, Russia or both. But I also verify western press reports on Russia Today tv and on articles with a link on http://www.rt.com . And most of the time, I’m shocked. Believe me, RT's counter poison works for me: it’s facts against accusations.

Let me give you some examples, without going too much into details:

"the transport back to Russia from the rocket launcher that shot down MH17": the location from those video shootage has been identified by local residents, upon the car dealer address on the billboard on that movie. The video footage was done 80 kms from the crash site and 120 kms away from the Russian border. So it was probably a Kiev army transport.

"the satellite photo from the Buk missile, photo from 14th July, near the crash site": RT has published a satellite photo from exactly the same source, 17 July a.m.: no rocket launcher anymore. The US State Department knew this, but yet they gave an outdated photo as proof.

"press reports with a rebel, showing a teddy bear as hunting trophee" : RT showed that the rebel indeed showed a teddy bear to the press. But the next seconds, the rebel bowed his head, removed his cap and made a sign of the cross. These images wee never shown on western media. Why? Because they contradict with "showing a hunting trophee": that’s expressing mercy with a child that’s killed. Western media only showed the rebel held up

US State Department, March 2014: “here are satellite photo’s of Russian troop movements towards the Ukrain borders”. Wait a moment: it was snowing at that time in Donetsk, so reporters investigated it. It appeared that the photo’s were from joint Russian and Ukrain army operations from August 2013.

“we have an audio in which the rebels confirm they shot down an civilian aircraft”. The transcript of that audio has been posted on Youtube. However, RT.com noticed that the "original time of the recording" on the Russian version differs from the "original time of the recording" on the English version. So it was fabricated
[/b][/color]

Did yoy follow of what RT were saying about russian army presence in Crymea? Listen, I was born in soviet union, i was fed loads od sh...t in my life that looked like true. Lets establish basics first - is there a free (national) press in Russia? Is RT controled by the RU government? Is RU government democratic and trustworthy? Opinions are being influenced in the west as in the east, i m not gloryfying the west in this respect. How many Russian journalist were killed in RU? Ana's Politkovskaya's name rings a bell? The sad part she is one of many ... Your problem is that u asume RU press is the same as western - which despite being free is also influenced by politicians, also sells shit that people want us to hear, but it is not state controled at least.

[Flanker2]

Well put Passenger and I'm actually amazed by the level of censorship on this on the Western side.
That this could be possible in the 21st century by our democratic governments is shocking to me.

[mooney058]

Well put Passenger and I'm actually amazed by the level of censorship on this on the Western side.
That this could be possible in the 21st century by our democratic governments is shocking to me.

Sorry, who censors you? Western press and governments are stupid enough and does not have enough evidence on the way things are run in russia? Well, assuming you are not russian, then u could assume that western and russian media are all the same - just all about scandals and money? Well, there is one big difference .... You know it . the second day of MH17 tragedy, RU media toned down reporting on MH17 considerably, before Liubianka came-up with a stories to tell later the following days. Censorship ... You talk.

[Flanker2]

Why are the Ukrainian troops fighting to secure the crash site when the separatists have already given many signs of goodwill to cooperate with the investigation? Perhaps they want to secure the evidence, especially the fragments of the missile that could contain fingerprints and clues?
I see no other reason for their incursion into the territory that they first agreed to keep battle-free.

Ukraine is violating the cease-fire agreement, yet not one media is reporting about it like that.

What will be Putin's next move? Does he care enough about this region to send his own troops, or will he let the Ukrainians have it their way?
After all Putin has already gotten what he wants, Crimea.

Does he care about the sanctions and accusations about MH17 or will he just wait for the investigation to say that Russia was involved (I'm sure it will say that), by which time the whole affair will have lost its weight anyway? Perhaps Russia has bigger things to focus on right now, such as the counter-sanctions and further course of action in the escalating tensions against the U.S.

Perhaps Putin will not do anything at all to prove that he doesn't fry small fish anymore.
But I see him cutting economic ties with Ukraine and Ukraine will enter a deep economical crisis and chaos, much worse than what we saw in Ukraine in the past few months. The EU won't be able to do anything to help as we already are struggling to relaunch our own economy.

The one sad thing I see happening is Antonov going bankrupt.
It's a state owned company but the actual production is done by Russian companies, so without that, Antonov can't survive. It's sad because it will also mean the end for the Myria, as it can't fly without spares support from the Russian suppliers.

[mooney058]

Why are the Ukrainian troops fighting to secure the crash site when the separatists have already given many signs of goodwill to cooperate with the investigation? Perhaps they want to secure the evidence, especially the fragments of the missile that could contain fingerprints and clues?
I see no other reason for their incursion into the territory that they first agreed to keep battle-free.

Ukraine is violating the cease-fire agreement, yet not one media is reporting about it like that.

What will be Putin's next move? Does he care enough about this region to send his own troops, or will he let the Ukrainians have it their way?
After all Putin has already gotten what he wants, Crimea.

Does he care about the sanctions and accusations about MH17 or will he just wait for the investigation to say that Russia was involved (I'm sure it will say that), by which time the whole affair will have lost its weight anyway? Perhaps Russia has bigger things to focus on right now, such as the counter-sanctions and further course of action in the escalating tensions against the U.S.

Perhaps Putin will not do anything at all to prove that he doesn't fry small fish anymore.
But I see him cutting economic ties with Ukraine and Ukraine will enter a deep economical crisis and chaos, much worse than what we saw in Ukraine in the past few months. The EU won't be able to do anything to help as we already are struggling to relaunch our own economy.

The one sad thing I see happening is Antonov going bankrupt.
It's a state owned company but the actual production is done by Russian companies, so without that, Antonov can't survive. It's sad because it will also mean the end for the Myria, as it can't fly without spares support from the Russian suppliers.

Flanker, how many russian military jets you want me to buy before you stop posting the pearls of your wisdom? Could you please define 'separatis' for me - 'donetsk republic' leaders are all from russia (not ukrainian russians, but from Russia - the so called prime minister said he is from Moscow, the military 'leaders' all came from russia - they separate what from what? In my vocabulary these type of 'people' are called agressors. So please, unless you understand political reality, stop twisting it and using MH17 tragedy to fit your twisted reality. I know u look-up some graphs (although I doubt you understand them), you show carrying for western and UA economy and people's well being (not so much we have heard about RU wellbeing - not intersting to you?), you 'sell' russian military planes and put positive tags on aggresors ... same question - who are you? Your selection of adjectives when talking about countries involved in a war is clear.

[Airbus330lover]

Sorry.... but it's not a political forum....
beontop, NCB, Flanker, Flanker2 STOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOP

[mooney058]

Sorry.... but it's not a political forum....
beontop, NCB, Flanker, Flanker2 STOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOP

I agree, yet there is a political flavour to MH17 tragedy - it happened in a war zone with a possible reason being political/military. On my side, I will stop replying to Flanker's posts, even though I considered it my duty to respond to obvious attempts to twist the story, but enough is said so I will stop.

[regi]

strange things:
MH370 & MH17 , both B777, had something leading to their crash / disappearance.
Of both airplanes, it takes more time than normal to make conclusions.
In both cases, accessability is a problem - in fact the only problem - to draw conclusions.

In both cases I took the responsability to swim against the current and point at other possebilites.
But in both cases it is also possible that there are very simple explanations: A pilot hijack for MH370 and a ( accidental ) BUK -missile downing what MH17 concerns.
The strange thing is that the most simple explanation has not yet been proved.

[RTM]

Sorry.... but it's not a political forum....
beontop, NCB, Flanker, Flanker2 STOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOP

Can't agree more...
Asked him several times allready, but there doesn't seem to be a single decent cell in his body.
No sympathy or respect at all for those who perished.

I do understand that there is a political side to this story, but htere are several ways of approaching the sensitive subject, I hope this thread can continue now with dignity.