Malaysia B772 flight MH17 AMS-KUL downed near Donetsk, Ukraine

[sean1982]

I hope you never have to lose someone you love in circumstances like that. Their corpse shown on tv. Letting them rot for days in the fields. Robbed from their posessions: wedding rings, camera's, phones, wallets.
Just try for one second with your mind, that is clearly uncapable of processing emotion, to imagine it was your wife or child lying there. And you say they are "no interested party"?
You are dispicable!

You are clearly under stress from this accident if you have to pull out such insults. Remember that the people who have facilitated this accident are no one less than you and me and others who have voted our representatives. Our representatives have then pushed for a revolution in a poor but peaceful country for no other reason than financial gain and military strategy.

The blood is on the hands of the people who have pulled the trigger, but it is also on our hands.
Hence, I find it selfish of all of us to say that we are not responsible for these deaths and that we are mourning them.

The same way we are also responsible for what is happening in Gaza, where we gave a country that was not ours, in compensation of the genocide that took place in Germany. Look at the result: now the genocidees are the ones genociding.

Good for you if you can insult people and not feel responsible for what is happening.

Under stress? No, unlike yourself I'm capable to process and feel human emotion.
If you believe all the crap you are spinning out here, it's beyond me you didn't yet end up in a mental institution.

[Passenger]

Flankers comments are indeed stupid, offensive, mostly off topic and repulsive. But I hate them the most because they weaken a possible cause of the crash that I also support.

From the first minute that the aircraft crashed, there was only one reason accepted worldwide: it was shot down by the rebels. But so far, we haven’t had any proof yet. So a bomb onboard could also have been the cause, or a huge technical failure (ex. fuel tank exploded).

Another possibility is that the 777 was shot down accidentally by a military flighter – called “friendly fire” in military. There are two pointers for that: a Spanish ATC had mentionned before that a military aircraft was seen at 3 kms from the 777 at the time of the crash, and the Russian intelligence later confirmed that with a clear radar shot, identifying it as Su-25 N°… (the photo has been posted here). However, none of the pro EU pro USA media has investigated that possibility.

Except for the BBC: BBC Russia interviewed two local female residents – clearly no rebels – who stated that they saw a fighter near the 777, just after the explosion. However, BBC deleted that report soon after it was posted on BBC.co.uk. Reason: something like “the report doesn’t apply to BBC standards”. Clear censorship thus, on request by some who had interest that the presence of an Ukrain fighter near the 777 is bad news.

English report on that censorship:
http://rt.com/news/175476-bbc-deleted-report-mh17/

Transscript of the initial BBC report:
http://vineyardsaker.blogspot.co.uk/201 ... earch.html

Another possibility is that this Ukrain fighter was used as bait: “try to shoot us, and you will hit a civilian aircraft”. There is a video that has been uploaded some weeks before the crash, stating that Kiev uses civilian aircraft to attack citizen targets. Look what happens here at 1m10sec:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aKKoKmUtQXE



Anyway:

If the rebels have indeed shot down the 777, there is one issue that remains undiscussed. It even seems to have a press embargo on it. If the rebels had indeed access to those heavy surface to air missiles, that access must have been known by both the Ukrain government and the CIA, who is in Ukrain since February and meanwhile has coverage, by drones, of each square inch of Eastern Ukrain. Why haven’t they informed civil aviation about that danger? Why had they closed airspace only till 6 kms, double the altitude that a shoulder launcher can reach? It's a horrible thaught, but the reason it was kept secret could have been that they knew that a civilian disaster would happen sooner or later. Let's not forget that both the Ukrain junta and the USA don't have a problem with so called collateral damage (look how the USA accepts even the bombing of civil U.N. facilities in Gaza).

And finally, to make sure: I don’t state that this is what happened. I only state that we don’t know yet what happened.

[sn26567]

Dutch and Australian investigators are not going to the MH17 crash site in eastern Ukraine due to security concerns, OSCE monitors say.

Therefore, Malaysia has secured an agreement with Ukrainian separatists, who control the area around the MH17 crash site, to allow a group of international police personnel to enter the area in order to provide protection for international crash investigators.

See bottom of this page for more details: viewtopic.php?f=31&t=53947&p=303054#p303054

[regi]

I do share the opinion that the Netherlands is not a neutral partner for this investigation. But immediately I have to add that it is almost impossible to find now a neutral investigation board. India, Japan, Switzerland and Brasil might have been better options.

Maybe not a neutral partner, but for sure one that will be very motivated and dedicated to find out, and bring out the truth. And nothing but the truth.

Look, if we allow that a non neutral party will do the investigation, we must accept as well that whatever conclusion they make, it will be contested by who is accused.

[regi]

http://vineyardsaker.blogspot.fr/2014/0 ... atoly.html
Today (July 23), Anna-News published an interview with a Russian Air Force retired colonel Aleksand Zhilin (Александр Жилин) who is a frequent military commentator on the conflict in Ukraine. The most important information is stated at 2:00-5:00 in the interview.

According to the colonel, at 16:19:45, a Ukrainian jet fighter targeted the Boeing with an air-to-air missile R-60. The missile damaged the right engine of the Boeing. The Boeing was hit, but still managed to stay in the air. However, in doing so, the Boeing turned 180 degrees to the left.

The colonel clearly never flew a crippled twin engine jet!

did you ?

[Passenger]

Dutch and Australian investigators are not going to the MH17 crash site in eastern Ukraine due to security concerns, OSCE monitors say.

Therefore, Malaysia has secured an agreement with Ukrainian separatists, who control the area around the MH17 crash site, to allow a group of international police personnel to enter the area in order to provide protection for international crash investigators.

See bottom of this page for more details: viewtopic.php?f=31&t=53947&p=303054#p303054

The safety problem is not that the rebels don't want them to come. The safety problem is that the Ukrainian air force keeps on bombing the area. Despite the crash, despite the presence of OSCE, despite the request from the Dutch teams to recover the last remains.

[Passenger]

Regrettably, this MH17 crash is used as gunpowder by the USA in their cold war against Russia.

Some journalists strongly disagree. Matthew Lee, senior journalist for Associated Press, confronted the U.S. State Department about their statements.

Matthew Lee: "...I think that it would be best for all concerned here if when you make an allegation like that you’re able to make it up with something more than just ‘because I said so. You guys get up at the UN security council making these allegations , secretary of State John Kerry gets on the Sunday shows and makes these allegations, and then when you present your evidence to back up those allegations, it has appeared to, at least for some, fall short of definitive proof..."

It's the first YouTube on this page (not shown on western media yet):
http://beforeitsnews.com/politics/2014/ ... 40182.html

[globetrotter]

Flanker is speaking bitter truth, minus some insensitive comments he has valid points.

[mooney058]

Flankers comments are indeed stupid, offensive, mostly off topic and repulsive. But I hate them the most because they weaken a possible cause of the crash that I also support.

From the first minute that the aircraft crashed, there was only one reason accepted worldwide: it was shot down by the rebels. But so far, we haven’t had any proof yet. So a bomb onboard could also have been the cause, or a huge technical failure (ex. fuel tank exploded).

indeed? The UFO interference should not be ruled out, somebody saw Martians flying in the area - it could not be ruled out. Rebels celebrating in the first minutes and intercepted communication between the rebels count for nothing? Not yet a 100% proof, but many details and circumstances point to a particular side

Another possibility is that the 777 was shot down accidentally by a military flighter – called “friendly fire” in military. There are two pointers for that: a Spanish ATC had mentionned before that a military aircraft was seen at 3 kms from the 777 at the time of the crash, and the Russian intelligence later confirmed that with a clear radar shot, identifying it as Su-25 N°… (the photo has been posted here). However, none of the pro EU pro USA media has investigated that possibility.

Russian intelligence as a reliable source of information? Ru said their military was not present in Crimea

Except for the BBC: BBC Russia interviewed two local female residents – clearly no rebels – who stated that they saw a fighter near the 777, just after the explosion. However, BBC deleted that report soon after it was posted on BBC.co.uk. Reason: something like “the report doesn’t apply to BBC standards”. Clear censorship thus, on request by some who had interest that the presence of an Ukrain fighter near the 777 is bad news.

English report on that censorship:
http://rt.com/news/175476-bbc-deleted-report-mh17/

Transscript of the initial BBC report:
http://vineyardsaker.blogspot.co.uk/201 ... earch.html

Another possibility is that this Ukrain fighter was used as bait: “try to shoot us, and you will hit a civilian aircraft”. There is a video that has been uploaded some weeks before the crash, stating that Kiev uses civilian aircraft to attack citizen targets. Look what happens here at 1m10sec:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aKKoKmUtQXE



Anyway:

If the rebels have indeed shot down the 777, there is one issue that remains undiscussed. It even seems to have a press embargo on it. If the rebels had indeed access to those heavy surface to air missiles, that access must have been known by both the Ukrain government and the CIA, who is in Ukrain since February and meanwhile has coverage, by drones, of each square inch of Eastern Ukrain. Why haven’t they informed civil aviation about that danger? Why had they closed airspace only till 6 kms, double the altitude that a shoulder launcher can reach? It's a horrible thaught, but the reason it was kept secret could have been that they knew that a civilian disaster would happen sooner or later. Let's not forget that both the Ukrain junta and the USA don't have a problem with so called collateral damage (look how the USA accepts even the bombing of civil U.N. facilities in Gaza).

And finally, to make sure: I don’t state that this is what happened. I only state that we don’t know yet what happened.

[RTM]

I do share the opinion that the Netherlands is not a neutral partner for this investigation. But immediately I have to add that it is almost impossible to find now a neutral investigation board. India, Japan, Switzerland and Brasil might have been better options.

Maybe not a neutral partner, but for sure one that will be very motivated and dedicated to find out, and bring out the truth. And nothing but the truth.

Look, if we allow that a non neutral party will do the investigation, we must accept as well that whatever conclusion they make, it will be contested by who is accused.

The Dutch investigation is the air accident investigation, its goal is to find out why MH17 crashed. Te result will probably be that is was shot down. They are not going to answer who was responsible, that is part of the criminal investigation.

[Homo Aeroportus]

Concerning the above "Ich bin sehr unglücklich in Slovyansk" video, I am very happy to see that, although soldier Elena has no more water at home and must go to the fountain, she had a shower, did her hair and nail and could iron her shirt before expressing so spontaneously her anger before the camera.

The Propaganda Abteilung Director could have been more inspired by strapping her AK-74 better for a right-handed person though ....
Anyhow, the issue about the operational ceiling of the SU-25 on Wiki is now over since I learned that it can fly above and behind a 777 at FL330.

Isn't it time now we all stop taking sides?
Did the reds do it or the blues? Don't we all already know that yes we are constantly being told lies and more lies? WWII Coventry bombing? Irak WMD?
The only important thing to me is to keep one's mind open, to remain aware that what is presented may be so only to serve interests and not the truth.

At this stage it is important to find whether or not this crash is due to technical failure, pilot error, or airport security breach in the case of a bomb.
If any of the above is confirmed, then corrective actions must take place asap to prevent re-occurrence.

This is what is important.

H.A.

[Flanker2]

SN25657, why don't we organise a trip to the crash site, take in-detail pictures of the debris and try to see if we can find the exact coordinates the aircraft was hit by back-tracking the trail of debris and using charts and wind directions on the day.
We can stay with the locals and see if what they're saying is true about the airstrikes. That way we can verify the SU-25 story by asking details and checking whether there is any truth to it.

We can then publish our independent findings on this forum and it will certainly gather a lot of interest from people outside luchtzak as well.

[crlhub]

Flight MH17 - What You're Not Being Told

http://scgnews.com/flight-mh17-what-you ... being-told

[sn26567]

SN25657, why don't we organise a trip to the crash site?

Do you have a budget? I have the time and the competence (at least I think so).

[sn26567]

Flight MH17 - What You're Not Being Told

http://scgnews.com/flight-mh17-what-you ... being-told

In this case (like, on a very different matter, in the Israel-Hamas conflict), each side publishes the facts that comfort its pre-established opinion and serves its own purposes (and only those facts).

So, why don't we wait for the conclusions of the independent inquiry that will look into all the available material? Let's hope that nobody will hinder their freedom of movement, which already seems to be the case.

[Lysexpat]

Flight MH17 - What You're Not Being Told

http://scgnews.com/flight-mh17-what-you ... being-told

Crlhub, may I, oce again, ask you if you read the article in your link??

It starts from a completely wrong assumption:

Why was flight MH17 routed over directly over a war zone? This was not a normal flight path. In fact it was 300 miles off course. Normally planes this flight path keep significantly farther south, and the decision to allow MH17 to fly over Donetsk was ultimately the decision of the the authorities in Kiev.

This is about the only question to which we know the answer: The airplane was on that specific route because Malaysia Airlines flight planning departement filled the route, nobody forced them to do so.

[thalenoi]

It is disgusting, shooting down a civilian aircraft and killing 298 people, mostly families with children.

Why can't those who pushed the button simply acknowledge their action?

Take responsibility for Christ sake!

These rebels post on websites, if they pushed the button I guess they are too stupid to check flightradar24 to see which planes are flying above their heads? I smell some idiots out there....

Comm'on.....

[regi]

OK, the first facts start to come in.
The black box has been read out and it indicates a missile attack because of a very sudden cabin hull breach.

[galaxy]

I guess they are too stupid to check flightradar24 to see which planes are flying above their heads?

Even with normal binoculars they could see the difference between a military or a civilian aircraft . Unbelievable idiots,yes.

[Passenger]

OK, the first facts start to come in. The black box has been read out and it indicates a missile attack because of a very sudden cabin hull breach.

Or a bomb on board.

Hope they will also be able to tell if the missile attack came from the ground or from a fighter aircraft.