Malaysia B772 flight MH17 AMS-KUL downed near Donetsk, Ukraine

[Passenger]

Why is the Dutch Safety Board leading this investigation? They have a conflict of interest at best.

Normally, the Ukrain Civil Aviation Authority would have been in charge indeed, with others assisting. However, the Netherlands and Ukrain yesterday evening agreed yesterday that the Netherlands would lead the investigation. Why? Pressure from the Netherlands probably.

There is no conflict of interest. The Dutch Investigation Board For Safety (Onderzoeksraad voor de Veiligheid) - is a 100% independent board with a clean sheet ànd with resistance against foreign pressure. Remind the Afriqiyah crash in Tripoli, killing 70 Dutch citizens, when the Dutch Onderzoeksraad disagreed with the Lybian CAA about crew fatigue. Furthermore, the Onderzoeksraad has, sadly enough, experience with two major recent airliner crashes (Türkish, Afriqiyah).

Meanwhile, both flight recorders have been read out successfully :

"...The international investigation team led by the Dutch Safety Board, continued the work on the Cockpit Voice Recorder and the Flight Data Recorder today. The work took place at the Farnborough headquarters of the Air Accidents Investigation Branch (AAIB) in the United Kingdom. The international investigation team has conducted a thorough examination of the Flight Data Recorder. The Flight Data Recorder was slightly damaged but the memory module was intact. Furthermore, no evidence or indications of manipulation of the recorder was found. Following the examination, the data was successfully downloaded and the Flight Data Recorder contained valid data of the flight. The data from both recorders will be further analysed and combined. A thorough analysis of the information obtained will take time and the results will be included in the investigation..."

- -

I am very relieved that the Dutch Onderzoeksraad takes the lead, and not the Ukrain so called aviation authority. Those corrupt guys would need just one hour to write their report and please their fund suppliers EU and USA: "our conclusion is that the aircraft is shot down by pro-Russian separatists with missiles provided by Poetin".

And finally, and contrary to most people here, I agree with Flanker2 that there is no certainty at all that the rebels did shot down the aircraft. There is no proof that they have (or had) the necessary weapons. At the conctrary: with the CIA officially at location in Ukrain for several months now, and with satellites and drones circulating above Eastern Ukrain day and night, the CIA would have known this. If Obama knew that the anti-Kiev rebels had the missiles, it is a criminal act from him to withhold such information to ICAO.

[convair]

Most of the posts on this tread are merely quotes from various sources. You (Passenger) and Flanker are among the few who jumped to conclusions.

[Passenger]

Most of the posts on this tread are merely quotes from various sources. You (Passenger) and ..... are among the few who jumped to conclusions.

I strongly disagree.

1. I haven't posted any conclusion yet. But this also means I reject all the firm statement that the rebels have shot down the aircraft (like Obama did). I want to see a proof, and Obama's statement "we know" is no proof for me. And fir sure not when he has lied before (with his false satellite photo's of troop movements).

2. the so called "quotes from various sources" mainly support the suggestion that the "pro Russian separatists" have shot down the Boeing. Many of those "sources" are false, misleading, fabricated. I follow reports on both CNN and Russia Today. And they differ day and night. Just one example: the photo of the rebel who showed a teddy bear to the press. Most pro-EU press showed just the photo and then added "look how the separatists show their hunting trophy". On Russia Today, they showed the whole picture: that rebel indeed showed the teddy bear to the press, but then he removed his cap, bowed his head and made a sign of the cross. Why didn't the pro-EU press showed also that? Because the whole picture shows the rebels as humans? Same applies for the removal of bodies: the OSCE asked the rebels not to touch anything, so they didn't. After three days, the OSCE hadn't done anything yet. CNN and NOS: "shame, the rebels leave the bodies lying on the ground for three days". Russia Today: "after three days, the rebels ignored the orders from the OSCE not to remove bodies".

3. So far, the only fact we know for sure is that aircraft crashed. Possibilities:
- technical failure
- bomb on board
- shot down by a missile from the rebels
- shot down by a missile from the Ukrain army
- shot down by a missile from Russian troops
- shot down by an Ukrain air force fighter
- mid air collision (with an Ukrain Su-25)
- other

[convair]

I note that you now state that you don't reach any conclusion. However, you should also be aware that the people who quote from various sources do not necessarily agree with their (the sources') statements.
This being said, I agree with your last point.

[mooney058]

Most of the posts on this tread are merely quotes from various sources. You (Passenger) and ..... are among the few who jumped to conclusions.

I strongly disagree.

1. I haven't posted any conclusion yet. But this also means I reject all the firm statement that the rebels have shot down the aircraft (like Obama did). I want to see a proof, and Obama's statement "we know" is no proof for me. And fir sure not when he has lied before (with his false satellite photo's of troop movements).

2. the so called "quotes from various sources" mainly support the suggestion that the "pro Russian separatists" have shot down the Boeing. Many of those "sources" are false, misleading, fabricated. I follow reports on both CNN and Russia Today. And they differ day and night. Just one example: the photo of the rebel who showed a teddy bear to the press. Most pro-EU press showed just the photo and then added "look how the separatists show their hunting trophy". On Russia Today, they showed the whole picture: that rebel indeed showed the teddy bear to the press, but then he removed his cap, bowed his head and made a sign of the cross. Why didn't the pro-EU press showed also that? Because the whole picture shows the rebels as humans? Same applies for the removal of bodies: the OSCE asked the rebels not to touch anything, so they didn't. After three days, the OSCE hadn't done anything yet. CNN and NOS: "shame, the rebels leave the bodies lying on the ground for three days". Russia Today: "after three days, the rebels ignored the orders from the OSCE not to remove bodies".

3. So far, the only fact we know for sure is that aircraft crashed. Possibilities:
- technical failure
- bomb on board
- shot down by a missile from the rebels
- shot down by a missile from the Ukrain army
- shot down by a missile from Russian troops
- shot down by an Ukrain air force fighter
- mid air collision (with an Ukrain Su-25)
- other

1. Who was shooting down military planes in the area and claiming 'success''?
2. Who claimed another 'successful' downing immediately after MH17 was hit?
3. On the 'sources' - why would you take anything seriously RU state control media says? Why did RT journalist resign one after another?

The only fact is i that Russia fighting the war against its brother nation - why? Long discussion. Can you trust Russian politicians and state control media says? Your call.

Btw, the newest The Economist has an article worth reading, unless you prefer RT "news"

[Flanker2]

1. Who was shooting down military planes in the area and claiming 'success''?
2. Who claimed another 'successful' downing immediately after MH17 was hit?
3. On the 'sources' - why would you take anything seriously RU state control media says? Why did RT journalist resign one after another?

1. 2. The Americans (I don't remember who said it, I'm guessing that it was that press secretary) have said themselves that if the Ukrainians did it, they would have made sure that the rebels would be claiming victory for downing the aircraft and would have set them up in that way. That American person said that that didn't happen, while other sources such as yourself claim that they did claim victory.
So maybe those claims were fabricated.

3. No one believes anything, but at the moment we have different flows of information saying totally different things. While we may consider the ones we're closer to more reliable, the tone used is nothing short of war rethoric, so rational people will take some distance and think "wait a minute, what is going on here". People whose emotions are aroused by the said event, will tend to follow more radical theories without being able to take a distance and hear everyone out.

It's a sad event but first we need facts, then we can accuse or blame.

@passenger: I don't fully agree on the Dutch Onderzoeksraad being a neutral party when their own people are involved. They certainly do a good job laying down their version of the facts, but their report on the Afriqiyah crash did insult the intelligence of the Lybian an French investigators with their letters.
Same thing with the Amsterdam TK crash where IMO they had the opportunity to highlight how the B737NG's stall warning systems is a silent killer in that it doesn't provide a timely warning during the approach. When the stall warning and stick shaker went off, the crew was already doomed.
Same thing for the A/T disconnect which was not noticed by the pilots.
They laid most of the blame on the pilots who didn't monitor airspeed and ATC who cut corners in the approach, when the machine is just another accident waiting to happen.

Also, the Bijlmerramp where the Dutch really botched it big time .

I think that there is a big conflict of interest given that Dutch higher-raking officials, including the PM, have already pointed fingers to Russia, perhaps out of anger. I don't think that an angry country is the right party to conduct a fair and transparent investigation. Also, the investigating party should have been appointed by the U.N. crime of wars Commission, through ICAO and should have been a neutral country such as Switzerland, Norway or even Malaysia.
I don't think that it was Ukraine's right to choose the investigating party, as they too have a conflict of interest in this matter.

And no Mooney, I'm not saying that Russia or the newfound Democratic whatever of Donetsk should conduct the investigation

[Flanker2]

I must add that I find it utterly disgusting of the Dutch that they parade with the dead bodies of the victims. That should not be allowed for the dignity of the dead.
If I were killed in that accident, I wouldn't care if they threw my body at the crash site, but I wouldn't approve that my body be used as a tool of propaganda by any government.


hln.be

When Hamas parades a dead child's body, the whole world is disgusted at the "devils who are parading their human shields". Well this is is much worse for me, especially as non-Dutch bodies are also used for it.



Dailymail.co.uk

[AirOpinion]

Maybe it shows that we people are all frankly the same...
... and if you find grief disgusting well than that says enough!

To me this is not propaganda, it is a demonstration of respect.

[mooney058]

1. Who was shooting down military planes in the area and claiming 'success''?
2. Who claimed another 'successful' downing immediately after MH17 was hit?
3. On the 'sources' - why would you take anything seriously RU state control media says? Why did RT journalist resign one after another?

1. 2. The Americans (I don't remember who said it, I'm guessing that it was that press secretary) have said themselves that if the Ukrainians did it, they would have made sure that the rebels would be claiming victory for downing the aircraft and would have set them up in that way. That American person said that that didn't happen, while other sources such as yourself claim that they did claim victory.
So maybe those claims were fabricated.

3. No one believes anything, but at the moment we have different flows of information saying totally different things. While we may consider the ones we're closer to more reliable, the tone used is nothing short of war rethoric, so rational people will take some distance and think "wait a minute, what is going on here". People whose emotions are aroused by the said event, will tend to follow more radical theories without being able to take a distance and hear everyone out.

It's a sad event but first we need facts, then we can accuse or blame.

@passenger: I don't fully agree on the Dutch Onderzoeksraad being a neutral party when their own people are involved. They certainly do a good job laying down their version of the facts, but their report on the Afriqiyah crash did insult the intelligence of the Lybian an French investigators with their letters.
Same thing with the Amsterdam TK crash where IMO they had the opportunity to highlight how the B737NG's stall warning systems is a silent killer in that it doesn't provide a timely warning during the approach. When the stall warning and stick shaker went off, the crew was already doomed.
Same thing for the A/T disconnect which was not noticed by the pilots.
They laid most of the blame on the pilots who didn't monitor airspeed and ATC who cut corners in the approach, when the machine is just another accident waiting to happen.

Also, the Bijlmerramp where the Dutch really botched it big time .

I think that there is a big conflict of interest given that Dutch higher-raking officials, including the PM, have already pointed fingers to Russia, perhaps out of anger. I don't think that an angry country is the right party to conduct a fair and transparent investigation. Also, the investigating party should have been appointed by the U.N. crime of wars Commission, through ICAO and should have been a neutral country such as Switzerland, Norway or even Malaysia.
I don't think that it was Ukraine's right to choose the investigating party, as they too have a conflict of interest in this matter.

And no Mooney, I'm not saying that Russia or the newfound Democratic whatever of Donetsk should conduct the investigation

On the Russian state media i heard confessions by separatist (whos "prime minister" is from moscow btw) claiming it (downing planes and helicopters ) in a plain language.

[Flanker2]

Maybe it shows that we people are all frankly the same...
... and if you find grief disgusting well than that says enough!

To me this is not propaganda, it is a demonstration of respect.

If you want to pay them respect, you don't mediatise their deaths by building a column of funeral transports.

If you want to pay them respect, you make sure they get a beautiful, peaceful and quiet ceremony with their individual families, so that they can get a chance to say goodbye in a peaceful environment and remember the great moments they had together.
This doesn't help the families, nor the victims and I don't think that you need to add grief to a situation that already generates sufficient grief.
At that point you're not generating more grief, but anger.

Do it once, like yesterday, then we can call it arrogance.
Do it twice, like also today, it becomes cheap propaganda.

The shiny Cadillac's add a nice touch of snob by the way, in contrast to the poor separatists who put them in plastic bags and refrigerated trains. Can you blame them, when they earn less than the Chinese while not knowing if their families will survive the next Ukrainian airstrike in their quest for freedom?

[mooney058]

Maybe it shows that we people are all frankly the same...
... and if you find grief disgusting well than that says enough!

To me this is not propaganda, it is a demonstration of respect.

If you want to pay them respect, you don't mediatise their deaths by building a column of funeral transports.

If you want to pay them respect, you make sure they get a beautiful, peaceful and quiet ceremony with their individual families, so that they can get a chance to say goodbye in a peaceful environment and remember the great moments they had together.
This doesn't help the families, nor the victims and I don't think that you need to add grief to a situation that already generates sufficient grief.
At that point you're not generating more grief, but anger.

Do it once, like yesterday, then we can call it arrogance.
Do it twice, like also today, it becomes cheap propaganda.

Why do u consider it not being peaceful and nice ceremony? The tragedy touched the whole nation, most people were touched, thus a national ceremony. When russian submarine had accident, dutch and British rushed to the rescue/recovery and poor soldiers got state funeral, while ru state first tried to hide the accident and it was likely they would have been quietly left to rot there for ages. , same as ru denied Chernobyl as if nothing happened ...

[convair]

For once I agree with Flanker on the macabre parade from Eindhoven to Hilversum. I had not understood why the planes had come to Eindhoven in the first place, as there are supposedly enough airports (civil or military) closer to Hilversum, until I saw the parade on TV.
I fully respect the grief and anger of the Dutch people (among others) after that tragedy, but I must say I found this parade a little too much, and, sorry to say, like an invitation to voyeurism.

[b-west]

Looks like our resident forum troll has found another theme to nourish himself from...

Don't worry. He'll disappear from this thread just as soon as enough proof has amassed to prove him wrong. Happened so many times before and it'll happen here again...

[Flanker2]

@Convair: thank you for conveying your opinion.

[crlhub]

http://www.les-crises.fr/une-resistante ... ent-154336

[crlhub]

http://vineyardsaker.blogspot.fr/2014/0 ... atoly.html

A fuller version of what happened starts emerging piece by piece. First, as I pointed out earlier, in one his daily battle reports, Strelkov or his associates indicated as if in passing that the Malaysian airliner, Boeing 777, was shot down by Ukrainian jet fighters. Then came the briefing by the Russian Ministry of Defense, which showed a Ukrainian SU-25 within 3-5 km from the Boeing at the very moment when the Boeing was hit. In the next four minutes, the Ukrainian fighter remained in the area. At the moment, when the Boeing was hit, it was also within the range of several Ukrainian Buk batteries, which were deployed close to Donetsk and then, just for that very day, 8km south of Shakhterskoye, which is also only several miles from the crash site.

Today (July 23), Anna-News published an interview with a Russian Air Force retired colonel Aleksand Zhilin (Александр Жилин) who is a frequent military commentator on the conflict in Ukraine. The most important information is stated at 2:00-5:00 in the interview.

According to the colonel, at 16:19:45, a Ukrainian jet fighter targeted the Boeing with an air-to-air missile R-60. The missile damaged the right engine of the Boeing. The Boeing was hit, but still managed to stay in the air. However, in doing so, the Boeing turned 180 degrees to the left. It was at this moment that the false flag attack started falling apart. According to Zhilin, part of the plan controlled by the US with Ukrainian hands executing it was to have the Boeing crash past the southern frontline by the Ukrainian-Russian border. Had the Boeing fallen there, securing the crash sites with the troops in response to international pressure was on top of all else effectively allow Kiev to lift the encirclement of its brigades in the southern pocket by the Russian border.

When, however, the Boeing started to turn in the opposite direction and was still apparently manageable, "the US-Ukrainian headquarters of the special operation panicked and order the Buk battery to destroy the plane in the air in order to pre-empt the possibility of the Boeing's emergency landing." A Buk missile was fired and the plane was then finally destroyed.

The disclosure of the Russian electronic intelligence (in fact, only one part of it) on July 21 put the US against the wall. The existence of this intelligence and other data also means that the US cannot show the real intelligence, which they also have, including the data from their electronic warfare exercise SEA BREEZE 2014 and the data from their spy satellite, which just happened to be over the area during the downing of the Malasysian Boeing.

The other relevant information, which the Russian colonel revealed, was that the Malaysian Boeing was insured for $97 million against damages or losses as a result of military actions.

http://ai-zhilin.livejournal.com/1419422.html


http://vineyardsaker.blogspot.fr/2014/0 ... rtant.html

http://www.les-crises.fr/fin-du-gouvernement-kiev/

[RTM]

And you honestly believe that...?
You probably also then believe Star Wars truly happened...? How else could they have filmed it... right?


@Flanker... Just shut the F*** UP!
If you think it is disgusting to show respect, well, I am disgusted by your complete anti-social behaviour.
Yes, may be it is a bit much what the Dutch are doing, but so what. The nation is in deep grief, and they can only do this thing first time right. Anything less, and the Dutch people are pissed off.
Also, it was coordinated with all country's involved, so who are you to be a critic in this one. And don't forget Holland got credits from the entire world for the respect and dignity they showed. And, it is a slap in the face to the people who committed this crime, left the remains to rot for days and on top af all looted the victims of their belongings. The same people you are sorry for... And you are disgusted by the Dutch... Idiot, shame on you!

And what is wrong with flying the remains to Eindhoven? It is the only military air base that can handle such a logistic operation, certainly on such short notice. And yes, they would probably have preferred to use a location closer to the air base for the huge task of the identifications, but where the hell can you pull a location out of your hat that can house close to 300 remains for examination and storage? Especially on such short notice? And then, when you have found the location, how do you suggest to transport the remains from air base to morgue? Appearantly individual hurses (wich is normal in a civilized country btw) is to much for you. A (sometimes) refrigirated train, or a dump truck is just fine in your clear opinion. Or have one hurse drive up and down 74 times a day? And all that, try to decide and plan that in just a few days. To me, the Dutch did a tremendous job, and they deserve the credits they've got, every single one, and then some.

So please, crawl back under the rock you call home, and stay away from this subject. Either that, or show some damn respect!

[flightlover]

@flanker

Who are you to tell people how to grieve?

I see myself as a somewhat cold hearted person. And I do tend to make fun off extreme expressions off grieve. But you'll never here me say how they should express themselves. That much respect I do have.

And for the other issue of which reports are right, the western or the Russian?
This is a good example off how credibility gets effected when you always adapt the truth to what is convenient for your government. IF they are correct about what happened they have the problem off making it believable for westerners as they often get the real story about the items they do distort or ignore.

Western media has more credibility as they do attack their own government from time to time. Although the reports off some do have to be taken with a pinch off salt due to their background.

[Lysexpat]

http://vineyardsaker.blogspot.fr/2014/0 ... atoly.html
Today (July 23), Anna-News published an interview with a Russian Air Force retired colonel Aleksand Zhilin (Александр Жилин) who is a frequent military commentator on the conflict in Ukraine. The most important information is stated at 2:00-5:00 in the interview.

According to the colonel, at 16:19:45, a Ukrainian jet fighter targeted the Boeing with an air-to-air missile R-60. The missile damaged the right engine of the Boeing. The Boeing was hit, but still managed to stay in the air. However, in doing so, the Boeing turned 180 degrees to the left.

The colonel clearly never flew a crippled twin engine jet!
If the right engine was damaged, it would be difficult to turn left. If there was some damage to the right wing it could even have been impossible to turn left.

[regi]

so many different opinions.
Respect for the deceased is even a subject of harsh discussion.

I do share the opinion that the Netherlands is not a neutral partner for this investigation. But immediately I have to add that it is almost impossible to find now a neutral investigation board. India, Japan, Switzerland and Brasil might have been better options.