Malaysia B772 flight MH17 AMS-KUL downed near Donetsk, Ukraine

[sn26567]

Am I the only retard here waiting for the first proof of a missile?

The international experts have determined that the holes in the fuselage are compatible with the explosion of a Buk missile in the vicinity of the aircraft (a proximity fuse aboard the missile determines when it will detonate, creating an expanding fragmentation pattern of missile components).

[Flanker2]

I think that we will never know who really shot down MH17.
The international enquiry will say that the missile was probably shot from location X, but they will not know whether those were Ukrainian or separatists. Go figure.

I for one think that chances are high that Ukraine did it and are trying to cover it up by being the first and loudest in accusing the other party.


I watched the SU-25 detection theory of the Russians but IMO it's a real shot in the dark, I don't see it.
They say that a new aircraft appeared just next to the radar signature of the B777 as this one slowed down, probably after being hit.
I really think that it was just the B777 desintegrating that caused shadows on the radar. It's a big, long aircraft after all, the elevators alone are already probably the size of a SU-25.

[Lysexpat]

I watched the SU-25 detection theory of the Russians but IMO it's a real shot in the dark, I don't see it. They say that a new aircraft appeared just next to the radar signature of the B777 as this one slowed down, probably after being hit.
I really think that it was just the B777 desintegrating that caused shadows on the radar. It's a big, long aircraft after all, the elevators alone are already probably the size of a SU-25.

If the SU-25 was close enough of the B777 to be able to hide in his radar shadow, it would have been hit by the explosion as well.

[sn26567]

A train with the remains of 282 of the 298 victims of the Malaysian airliner which crashed in Ukraine has arrived in the city of Kharkhiv, outside rebel territory.

The MH17 train which arrived in city of Kharkiv had 200 bodies, not 282 as claimed by rebels, says the Dutch Prime Minister. Where are the other bodies?

[Flanker2]

Interesting. Perhaps there were 282 body bags, but not necessarily 200 bodies?
After all, the pictures I saw showed many limbs torn from the bodies, so many that it would be hard to figure out on the spot which belonged to whom. It must have been a horrible task for the locals and the separatists who took part in it.

I was actually surprised that they could find 282 bodies after such a crash.
Also, I'm afraid that there will be new discoveries in the coming days, as the crash site was very dispersed over tens of kilometers, owing to the inflight desintegration.

Who knows if someone didn't survive and is lying heavily injured somewhere in a field that hasn't been surveyed yet? It has happened before. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vesna_Vulovi%C4%87

[mooney058]

Interesting. Perhaps there were 282 body bags, but not necessarily 200 bodies?
After all, the pictures I saw showed many limbs torn from the bodies, so many that it would be hard to figure out on the spot which belonged to whom. It must have been a horrible task for the locals and the separatists who took part in it.

I was actually surprised that they could find 282 bodies after such a crash.
Also, I'm afraid that there will be new discoveries in the coming days, as the crash site was very dispersed over tens of kilometers, owing to the inflight desintegration.

Who knows if someone didn't survive and is lying heavily injured somewhere in a field that hasn't been surveyed yet? It has happened before. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vesna_Vulovi%C4%87

Flanker, who r u? You messages are consistent with RU propaganda and putting the blame on UA, r u just a Russian or just working for them?

[Flanker2]

Not at all.
No Russian blood at all, been to Russia only once, but I follow the Russians closely and I admire their aerospace know-how.

If you haven't noticed, we're heading towards a new cold war and not everyone is ok with that. Remember how long it took until the Wall of Berlin fell?
Obama and his friends are building it back up again with their sanctions and their strong words versus Russia.

So yes, you can blame Crimea on the Russians, but guess who gave them the opportunity?
Yes, Europe and the USA, when they supported the chaos in Ukraine.

So isn't it weird to you that Europe and USA are giving sanctions to the Russian for something they facilitated in the first place? That's the highlight of stupidity.

This accident shows the same pattern of arrogant behavior from the West.
First they put a country in chaos, then blame an airplane shotdown by themselves or the separatists to the Russians. Isn't that weird?

If it isn't weird to you, then you must have some form of hate for the Russians that you see everything they do as evil.
Ask yourself why you hate the Russians? Because your government tells you so?

Consider the further ramifications of all this: the EU is now much larger than it used to be. However, most of our new Eastern neighbors are highly dependent on Russian gas and oil.
Are you willing to pay your diesel at 2.50 EUR per liter to the Arabs, including our friends in Abu-Dhabi who are destroying directly (through EY) and indirectly (through EK) our other friends from Germany (LH) so that the Russians can keep their gas where the sun don't shine?

Why not focus all that wasted energy to eradicate poverty, environmental problems or build a colony on Mars, toegther with the rest of the world? Wouldn't that be a bigger achievement?

[Flanker2]

And the Americans take the U-turn...

American intelligence officials on Tuesday said evidence suggested the rebels may have shot down the jet "by mistake", and that no direct link to Russia had been found.

bbc.co.uk

I remind you a few days ago John Kerry said:

Enormous amount of evidence" Russia involved in MH17 crash

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/malaysia-ai ... h17-crash/

Ukraine is still maintining its radical stance and blaming Russia with very strong words and accusations, while bombing civilians in territory they claim to be their own, much like Syria is doing. The separatists are not killing any civilians as most are locals anyway... you make up your mind.

[crlhub]

U.S. intelligence agencies have so far been unable to determine the nationalities or identities of the crew that launched the missile. U.S. officials said it was possible the SA-11 was launched by a defector from the Ukrainian military who was trained to use similar missile systems.

latimes

http://www.les-crises.fr/theorie-avion-de-chasse/

http://www.les-crises.fr/le-gouvernemen ... soutenons/

[Squelsh]

In a testy exchange between AP reporter Matt Lee and U.S. State Department Deputy Spokesperson Marie Harf, Lee virtually corners Harf into admitting that the “evidence” presented by the U.S. to blame Russian-backed rebels for the shoot down of Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 amounts to nothing more than YouTube videos and social media posts.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oQRvINebeok

[regi]

Am I the only retard here waiting for the first proof of a missile?

The international experts have determined that the holes in the fuselage are compatible with the explosion of a Buk missile in the vicinity of the aircraft (a proximity fuse aboard the missile determines when it will detonate, creating an expanding fragmentation pattern of missile components).

no independent proof yet

[sn26567]

Dutch and Australian planes with victims of MH17 crash on board are expected at Eindhoven airport at 16.00 local time (GMT+2).

Royal Netherlands Air Force flight NAF22 (a Lockheed C-130 Hercules registered G-988) is flying home the first bodies from MH17, taking off from Kharkiv with destination Eindhoven. http://www.flightradar24.com/NAF22/3e27566


Picture BBC

Notam A1043/14 Amsterdam Airport: A ONE MINUTES SILENCE PERIOD WILL BE OBSERVED ON
JULI 23RD 2014 FROM 1400 TILL 1402. No take off, landing.

(A minute of silence that lasts 2 minutes?)

[Flanker2]

In a testy exchange between AP reporter Matt Lee and U.S. State Department Deputy Spokesperson Marie Harf, Lee virtually corners Harf into admitting that the “evidence” presented by the U.S. to blame Russian-backed rebels for the shoot down of Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 amounts to nothing more than YouTube videos and social media posts.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oQRvINebeok

That's good journalism. He's asking the right questions.
If the U.S. are basing their logic on Twitter posts of celebrating separatists, whom may have just posted it based on what they saw happen, ie a plane, as far as they knew at the time probably Ukrainian military, falling down and crashing, then they have no credibility.

That's no way for a super-power to behave.

If they want to rule out Ukrainian involvement, then they should send investigators to survey the Ukrainian government's Buk batteries and missiles, to see if nothing is missing from their inventory and to query on their movements in the previous days. Once they rule that out, they can accuse the separatists.

So far Ukraine have only been shouting, but they have not revealed the positions of their own batteries to rule out their involvement. In the meanwhile they continue to drop bombs on civilians.
If there is anyone behaving like radicals/terrorists, it's them.

[mooney058]

Not at all.
No Russian blood at all, been to Russia only once, but I follow the Russians closely and I admire their aerospace know-how.

If you haven't noticed, we're heading towards a new cold war and not everyone is ok with that. Remember how long it took until the Wall of Berlin fell?
Obama and his friends are building it back up again with their sanctions and their strong words versus Russia.

You must be mad - Putin's regime is criminal, West is only dealing with him because they get discounts on oil and gas. In this respect the West is very week. But the problem is on RU side. Putin is treating his own people like idiots - filters information, puts ones he does not like into prison (Chodorkovsky etc). So I do not see things going against RU, it is against actions of stupid RU politicians. You have to make a difference here. If you say that Putin is Russia, you play according to Putin's rules. Russia is Russian people, not Putin. Remember how Putin got to power - he was not Elected, he was SELEcted.
So yes, you can blame Crimea on the Russians, but guess who gave them the opportunity?
Yes, Europe and the USA, when they supported the chaos in Ukraine.

You must be drunk or mad to suggest this. Putin's regime is cleptocratic (RU is the biggest and wealthiest country in the world, but look at the shape of it). He controled regime in UA and did gas and other 'business' - people in UA overthrough Putin's puppits - the West supported people's rigth of self-determination and a will to live in a free society. Was it not chaos in UA before, helped to a large degree by RU and Soviet 'heritage'?
So isn't it weird to you that Europe and USA are giving sanctions to the Russian for something they facilitated in the first place? That's the highlight of stupidity.

The way you see the world suggests me you are russian propogandist or influenced by propoganda. Wake-up.This accident shows the same pattern of arrogant behavior from the West.
First they put a country in chaos, then blame an airplane shotdown by themselves or the separatists to the Russians. Isn't that weird?

You may pretend you are stupid and make suggestions like that, but my suggestion is to wake-up and use the grey material that God put between your ears ....
If it isn't weird to you, then you must have some form of hate for the Russians that you see everything they do as evil.
Ask yourself why you hate the Russians? Because your government tells you so?
I do not hate Russians, I think Putin hates them. I have Russian friends and there are many bright people in there. The mass is being fed lies and bulshit by RU media - why do they lie to the own people. I do not understand why you automaticaly assume that Putin is whole Russia....

Consider the further ramifications of all this: the EU is now much larger than it used to be. However, most of our new Eastern neighbors are highly dependent on Russian gas and oil.
Are you willing to pay your diesel at 2.50 EUR per liter to the Arabs, including our friends in Abu-Dhabi who are destroying directly (through EY) and indirectly (through EK) our other friends from Germany (LH) so that the Russians can keep their gas where the sun don't shine?

I happen to be an energy expert, this above is a complete bulshit ... Do you know the price of gas imported from RU to the 'eastern neighbours' in comparison to one for Germany? Have you heard of a 'druzhba' oil('friendship') pipeline in the Baltics and its fate?

Why not focus all that wasted energy to eradicate poverty, environmental problems or build a colony on Mars, toegther with the rest of the world? Wouldn't that be a bigger achievement?

[globetrotter]

Pilot made distress call according to relative who reported it to this Dutch paper http://joostniemoller.nl/2014/07/breken ... le-daling/

[Flanker2]

Well Mooney, if you feel so strongly, why don't you go out, buy yourself a sniper rifle and deal with "it" like a man?

[mooney058]

In a testy exchange between AP reporter Matt Lee and U.S. State Department Deputy Spokesperson Marie Harf, Lee virtually corners Harf into admitting that the “evidence” presented by the U.S. to blame Russian-backed rebels for the shoot down of Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 amounts to nothing more than YouTube videos and social media posts.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oQRvINebeok

That's good journalism. He's asking the right questions.
If the U.S. are basing their logic on Twitter posts of celebrating separatists, whom may have just posted it based on what they saw happen, ie a plane, as far as they knew at the time probably Ukrainian military, falling down and crashing, then they have no credibility.

That's no way for a super-power to behave.

If they want to rule out Ukrainian involvement, then they should send investigators to survey the Ukrainian government's Buk batteries and missiles, to see if nothing is missing from their inventory and to query on their movements in the previous days. Once they rule that out, they can accuse the separatists.

So far Ukraine have only been shouting, but they have not revealed the positions of their own batteries to rule out their involvement. In the meanwhile they continue to drop bombs on civilians.
If there is anyone behaving like radicals/terrorists, it's them.

Are you now talking to yourself? The link you provided is to Russia Today youtube channel - 'known' for its 'objectivity' just like other RU governement controled media .... stop it, it might be your job to spread this nonsense, but I do not see that bearing any fruit. And please, could GRU improve your english/style so it does not sound like russian.

[mooney058]

Well Mooney, if you feel so strongly, why don't you go out, buy yourself a sniper rifle and deal with "it" like a man?

And you said you are not russian ... when I translate this into russian, its a tipical russian sentence. I feel strongly about people telling lies, but I do not go and kill because of it. Can you have an argument - apparently not, as you provide bulshit and pieces of selected information that looks like a 'fact' and later you sell it as a fact - a very known tactics by some special bodies in Russia ... I am not in aviation, just a passenger, but loved reading on this forum, except the time you put stupid info on the orders of your 'owners' perhaps. Even if you spend a lot of time outside Russia, you still think (and write) like a russian propogandist.

[Passenger]

Dutch and Australian planes with victims of MH17 crash on board are expected at Eindhoven airport at 16.00 local time (GMT+2).

Royal Netherlands Air Force flight NAF22 (a Lockheed C-130 Hercules registered G-988) is flying home the first bodies from MH17, taking off from Kharkiv with destination Eindhoven. http://www.flightradar24.com/NAF22/3e27566

Notam A1043/14 Amsterdam Airport: A ONE MINUTES SILENCE PERIOD WILL BE OBSERVED ON
JULI 23RD 2014 FROM 1400 TILL 1402. No take off, landing.

(A minute of silence that lasts 2 minutes?)

See link above - flightradar24.com :

NAF22 is nearing Eindhoven at this very moment (ETA is 15h50)

[sn26567]

UK government sources say intelligence shows rebels deliberately tampered with evidence, moving bodies and placing parts from other planes in the debris.

As fighting continued in eastern Ukraine today, two aircraft thought to be Ukrainian military jets have been downed just 35km from the crash site.

A rebel militiaman told Italian newspaper Corriere della Sera that he had been ordered to the crash site minutes after the MH17 plane had gone down. He said his commanders had told him: "We've just shot down one of the Kiev fascists' planes." The militiaman said: "We thought we were looking for baled-out Ukrainian pilots but instead we found dead civilians."