Are noise complainers "fussy" ?

[teach]

Example:
I consider it unacceptable that people who live 21 km straight line from the airport are interrupted every so many minutes by thundering airplanes. Those people never had that problem in mind when they built there house in that communtiy of ...Antwerp province !!!

What on earth are you talking about? I'm one of those people: I live pretty much an exact 20 km straight line from the threshold of the 25s, under the flight path of the planes going in for landing, in the province of Antwerp. There are no 'thundering airplanes', you hardly hear them when inside the house, and when outside they're far quiter and less invasive than any semi-busy road within a km, let alone a railway line. I don't know anyone around here who complains about the planes. People first moving into the area consider the planes to be a 'curiosity' at first, but don't even mention them anymore after a short while. As for 'not having them in mind' when building their house... well they should've looked up every once in a while then shouldn't they?

[convair]

But small children grow up and become adults at the age of 18 and express themselves in the voting cabinet.
And when such a grown up child inherites a house and becomes the owner and lives there, he has every right to complain.

Yes, large ( and small ) airplanes make noise.
But instead of looking at the noise problem as a aviation harasment, it could be considered as a positive challenge: imagine we provide a combination of solutions so that more people can live closer around airports, because the noise level is acceptable.
( hey, I am no politician , despite it sounds like that )



Example:
I consider it unacceptable that people who live 21 km straight line from the airport are interrupted every so many minutes by thundering airplanes. Those people never had that problem in mind when they built there house in that communtiy of ...Antwerp province !!!

@regi,
You're the perfect example of the NIMBY syndrome!

[regi]

OK, fact: my brother built a house there. Raised his children untill they were sick of it. ( sick means really sick because of stress etcetera )
barbecue in the garden? every so many minutes, no more conversation possible because of the noise.
When my brother decided to build another house, he first checked now for noise pollution, having learned his lesson.
He is no aviation enthusiast at all. He never made a formal complaint about the noise, so far away from the airport. He just made up his mind and moved house.

They live now closer to the airport, but with less noise , probably because it is not under a corridor.

Me a NIMBY ? Euh... I don't live there, it is not my problem, it is my brother's. (Was.)
I am a bit disappointed that we can not discuss this problem of aviation noise openly without being crucified .
Hey, I am not a teacher in Ostend who buys a house under the approach , buys a Realistic decibel meter and harrasses normal airport activities with asocial behaviour.

[Stij]

Regi,

It's a very heated discussion, because a lot of members see these noise problems as an attack on their jobs...

I appreciate you and your views very much, but yes, this time you're acting a bit like a Nimby: you use the airport more than average (every Belgian making more than 1 round trip a year from BRU is more than average), but at the same time, you state that there should be less noise.

The noise is there and will reduce (per aircraft) over the years to come. IMHO opinion what remains should be equally distributed over the area behind the most appropriate runway as I think most of the people in Belgium use it: the rich for sure, most of the immigrants as well abnd the Antalya flights are very well filled as well.

We all want the advantages of the airport: jobs, holidays, tourists, business day returns, so we all should accept our share, just as we accept it from railways and highways...

Small reply about living 21km away from the runway: recently we had lot of take-offs from 07R and some of them fly straight over my house, 24km from the runway. Yes, you hear them, no the conversation doesn't have to be stopped, no, it doesn't keep me from sleeping.

Cheers,

Stij

[regi]

Ola, as I read these posts , I start to draw some conclusions:

• everybody who complains about airport noise is a NIMBY - regardless if this person lives considerably far away from the airport.
  the right to complain about airport noise depends on the frequency that somebody uses that airport, and depends on the benefits somebody has from this airport. In practice, it means that nobody has the right to complain.
  Nuisance has not been specified, so it doesn't exist.

Very short vision . I am an aviation enthusiast. But this does also mean that I am in favour of systems and technology to reduce airport noise.
I am a bit surprised that this positive development is regarded as anti aviation.

Just a detail: imagine that we can upgrade technology in such a way that night flights don't disturb people anymore, it could mean that the airport remains open 24 h. Is that not a positive idea?

[flightlover]

Ola, as I read these posts , I start to draw some conclusions:

• everybody who complains about airport noise is a NIMBY - regardless if this person lives considerably far away from the airport.
  the right to complain about airport noise depends on the frequency that somebody uses that airport, and depends on the benefits somebody has from this airport. In practice, it means that nobody has the right to complain.
  Nuisance has not been specified, so it doesn't exist.

Very short vision . I am an aviation enthusiast. But this does also mean that I am in favour of systems and technology to reduce airport noise.
I am a bit surprised that this positive development is regarded as anti aviation.

Just a detail: imagine that we can upgrade technology in such a way that night flights don't disturb people anymore, it could mean that the airport remains open 24 h. Is that not a positive idea?

I think I can speak for everyone here when I say any technological development that reduces noise is always welcome.

But the thing most nimby's are complaining about is the already less noisy planes that take of in the early morning/night. And me for one do not feel pity for them. They knew those planes where there before they went to live there. People born there can only blame their parents.

And yes I do have some right to complain as I live under one of the flight paths into ANR AND very close (50m) to the rail road Antwerp-Brussels. I know ANR is not that busy and certainly not at night. However the rail road has been completely renewed. Meaning heavy machinery being used ALL NIGHT causing heavy vibrations and loads of noise. The cast iron bridge that used to be has been changed by a concrete one.
We used to know a few minutes before when a train would arrive. Now it is way better.

So my advice would be: If you can not live with it: move. And, consequently, when you move do look for possible disturbing factors in the vicinity of your future home. And do take them into consideration when deciding you want to live there.
For those who can not afford to move: hope that the airlines can do well and make some money so they can afford to buy new, less noisy/polluting a/c.

[convair]

@regi

Your last post is a bit pathetic:
1. Nobody is again technological progress aimed at reducing noise level!
2. You certainly have the right to complain, but what's the solution you propose? Rebuild BRU in the middle of the Gobi desert? Or would the nuisance be alleviated by financial compensation by any chance?

[regi]

Sadly enough, nobody reacts on my positive approach.
At this moment there is a rather standarised procedure in Europe pro-contra aviation. Noise is used as a weapon. The result is that night flights have become a political hot potatoe.
The existing regulations can be used to counter the contra's. If the aviation industry finds the ways to reduce the noise level below the nuisance level, it is game set and match.

With all our expertise, knowledge, research departments, we could take the lead in this field to attract aviation related activities. Highly paid jobs, and a lead ahead of competition that has chosen for the old model.

The attitude " accept the noise or move" is short sighted, and plays in the cards of the contra's, and eventually leads to a standstill and decline in the future.

Gobi desert? Hm... did you not read my proposal to move the national airport to the center of Nimby county: flatten the Zoniën forrest and pour out the concrete.

[teddybAIR]

Hard to believe that overflying aircraft at 21km (11NM) from the RWY threshold prohibit your brothers family to have a conversation. 11NM is exactly the IF of RWY 25R and thus the point where they are expected to be aligned with the extended runway centerline after decending from 3.000ft (coming from Bruno) to 2.000 ft to intercept the glidepath. Normally you will notice that these aircraft are still in a fairly clean configuration as they try to maximally adopt a low config/low noise approach where they only extend the landing gear at the outer marker. So at 21km the aircraft is probably descending in a fairly low drag config, not turning and in a low engine regime. Hard to believe that it would adversely affect a bbq. It even doesn't in the region where I live and that is less than a mile from the threshold of the same runway with flaps 30°, gear out, lower altitude and engines spooled up to approx 55% N1. So I'm thinking someone might be exagerating a little here. And if we're completely honest: an average commuter road makes more constant, less spread and higher (in decibels) noise levels.

Question: does your brother travel by air once in a while?

[teach]

OK, fact: my brother built a house there.

In what village / city was this?

[teddybAIR]

Well,

On the condition that the before mentioned distances are correct, they are talking about the Heist op den Berg, Aarschot, Averbode area...strange to see people there complaining about aircraft noise...says more about their tolerance then about the effective noise levels.

[cnc]

lets ground all aircraft, close all rail & highways, shut down the industry and power plants... aaaah no more noise or pollution! but then they will start to whine and cry they have no electricity, luxury products, can't see the world,...

[Stij]

Well,

On the condition that the before mentioned distances are correct, they are talking about the Heist op den Berg, Aarschot, Averbode area...strange to see people there complaining about aircraft noise...says more about their tolerance then about the effective noise levels.

For the record, being from Aarschot, nobody EVER complained here: in fact the railway is worse, but no complaints either...

Cheers,

Stij

[teddybAIR]

Hi Stij,

I'm not saying that people from that region tend to complain. I'm simply replying to Regi who says his brother bought a house about 21km from brussels airport and that his children have sleeping dissorder resulting from stress induced by overflying aircraft. It's strange (and a shame) though that he doesn't seem to want to share the exact city/town because it would make it easier to analyse whether the complaints are ligitimate or not. I'm not saying they are not, but how can you expect a mature discussion based on incomplete facts, right?

[Stij]

Hi TeddybAIR,

No offence taken!!! My post was just to be eliminate any doubt!

Cheers,

Go Devils!

Stij

[teach]

On the condition that the before mentioned distances are correct, they are talking about the Heist op den Berg, Aarschot, Averbode area...strange to see people there complaining about aircraft noise...says more about their tolerance then about the effective noise levels.

Yep, I know, it's where I live. And as I've said before, I've heard nobody here complain about the aircraft noise.

[regi]

Hard to believe that overflying aircraft at 21km (11NM) from the RWY threshold prohibit your brothers family to have a conversation. 11NM is exactly the IF of RWY 25R and thus the point where they are expected to be aligned with the extended runway centerline after decending from 3.000ft (coming from Bruno) to 2.000 ft to intercept the glidepath. Normally you will notice that these aircraft are still in a fairly clean configuration as they try to maximally adopt a low config/low noise approach where they only extend the landing gear at the outer marker. So at 21km the aircraft is probably descending in a fairly low drag config, not turning and in a low engine regime. Hard to believe that it would adversely affect a bbq. It even doesn't in the region where I live and that is less than a mile from the threshold of the same runway with flaps 30°, gear out, lower altitude and engines spooled up to approx 55% N1. So I'm thinking someone might be exagerating a little here. And if we're completely honest: an average commuter road makes more constant, less spread and higher (in decibels) noise levels.

Question: does your brother travel by air once in a while?

it is the noise during take off...

[regi]

OK, fact: my brother built a house there.

In what village / city was this?

Sint-Amands surprise surprise, this is also Antwerp province. All presumptions from the other side of the province are obliterated.

[regi]

lets ground all aircraft, close all rail & highways, shut down the industry and power plants... aaaah no more noise or pollution! but then they will start to whine and cry they have no electricity, luxury products, can't see the world,...

You are 100 % right. That is in fact what happens the last 20 years.
And I am certainly not in favour of this. ( see latest panic footbal around the energy shortage upcoming winter )
We had marvellous provincial roads , 3 lanes with a 90 km/h speed limit. ( I did mostly 120 in the middle lane) On most stretches this has been brought down to 70 km/h. And the middle lane is now a building site of all kind of obstructions.
So instead of improving road safety by advancing technology, "they" pushed us back in the Middle Ages.
The facts are clear: less road fatalities. OK, if nobody drives anymore, there wil be no more road accidents.

Similar to aviation: instead of investing in active ( and passive ) noise reduction technology, they simply impose fines, impose new flight routes ( = more angry peoples) , forbid night activity, what ever.

[regi]

Hi Stij,
It's strange (and a shame) though that he doesn't seem to want to share the exact city/town because it would make it easier to analyse whether the complaints are ligitimate or not.

Wow, so you are the person who decides if a complaint is legitimate or not, even when I told already it is province Antwerp ?
And on what is that presumption based upon that I don't want to name the exact location ?
Nobody asked me, so...
Is the next thing the street name, house number , real name etcetera? I pass on that, that is abnormal behaviour on a normal internet forum to give publicly exact data.