Brussels Airlines' fleet renewal

[convair]

I don't know if this would be worth a separate thread, but I haven't seen a discussion on A319 vs A320 here. What are the pros and cons of each type and is it necessary for SN to have both?

[crew1990]

I don't know if this would be worth a separate thread, but I haven't seen a discussion on A319 vs A320 here. What are the pros and cons of each type and is it necessary for SN to have both?

Actually I think we should rename this topic in something like "Brussels Airlines Fleet" because it s actually what we are speaking here.

[Didymus]

The Airbus A320 series are actually replacing the Boeing & Avro fleet, so the topic title covers the load.

[Flanker2]

April 22, 2013
Credit: Tony Hisgett
The president and CEO of JetBlue Airways is “disappointed” with the carrier’s fleet of Embraer 190s and says the airline continues to struggle with maintenance costs on the 100-seat E-Jets.

“We should never have been the worldwide launch customer of a new airplane,” David Barger said in an April 21 address to the Harvard Business School’s Aerospace & Aviation Club in Boston, adding, “We weren’t big enough.”

Barger also expressed unhappiness with the Brazilian aircraft’s General Electric CF34 engines. “We’re not pleased with what we’re seeing on the Embraer [with] the GE motor,” he said.

http://www.aviationweek.com/Article.asp ... 571968.xml

Flybe is withdrawing their E195's after they delayed the deliveries on the E175's.
I've said it from the beginning... they should have stuck with the Q400 instead of going crazy with the jungle jets. They are nice airplanes, but in the current market it makes more sense to take A319/A320, they are cheap on the leasing market, cheaper and more predictable to maintain and the fuel burn isn't much larger while offering more seats.

Amazingly SN's long wait for the RJ replacement is paying off as the NEO's EIS is putting a lot of pressure on the A320 ceo valuations and making any RJ that they could have ordered a worse choice than going straight for the A319/A320... which is a relief for me as I was afraid that they would go for any RJ.
I think that going for A319/A320 is the least worse option.

This being said, without a strategy to funnel more pax to their hub, they will only see more and more pressure from the LCC's... to deter that they need to differentiate their business and do what LCC's can't do... which is what Flybe did right in the beginning, before going ballistic with the jungle jets, ie operating regional niches where U2 nor FR could touch them.

[OO-ITR]

And now back on topic..

Does anyone know where the two A319s will come from? Or any guess?

Also with the A350 that will be available at the end of the year, we can maybe already see which airlines will dispose of their A330s. I already had a look and TAM looks a good candidate...They have a bunch of A330s that are not too old.

EDIT : completion of post

[ticketbuyer]

There are a lot of E-jets becoming available now from Flybe and AA. They are about the same size as Avro RJs and could be considered as their replacement.
Not too far off topic.

[RoMax]

There are a lot of E-jets becoming available now from Flybe and AA. They are about the same size as Avro RJs and could be considered as their replacement.
Not too far off topic.

SN (and LH) already decided to go with a bigger fleet of A319's/A320's and a small regional fleet for certain thin routes (and those like BMA which can not be served by large aircraft) which will be leased from within the group. At the moment, there is no need for SN to search after E-jets.

[crew1990]

So in 2016, the SN fleet will look like around

10 A330-200/A330-300
30 A319/A320
4 regional aircraft within the LH group

Something like that?

[RoMax]

So in 2016, the SN fleet will look like around

10 A330-200/A330-300
30 A319/A320
4 regional aircraft within the LH group

Something like that?

Something like that, some time ago someone posted an overview I think it also still included some smaller wet leased aircraft and than those 4 regional jets (would be 100-seaters, so probably CR9 or E190/195). But I suppose final plans can always change by 2016 depending on the market conditions. But main point is the Airbus fleet will be increased and the regional aircraft fleet will be decreased.

[crew1990]

When SN Brussels Airlines and Virgin Express merged.

SN had:

3 A330-300
3 A319
5 Boeing 737-300
5 Boeing 737-400
12 Avro RJ100
14 Avro RJ85
6 BAe146

So a total of 48 aircrafts. While in 2016 there should be maybe 45 aircraft. But as they are more destination than before, it means that the frequencied drastically decreased in order to use bigger aircraft. It´s a bit sad as if there is more frequency, the client have a beter flexibility.

[Flanker2]

It's on topic because it was discussed on pages and pages of this thread why the Ejets did or did not make a good RJ100 replacement. I was one of them who said to stear clear of the Jets because of maintenance costs and I was asked to substantiate that.

Well, for those who still wanted to see that substantiation, there is now the above article of Jetblue CEO himself saying what I was saying long ago.

I think that it's rude to decide that something is off-topic, while it was discussed for pages and pages.

I am not - have never been - employed by Brussels Airlines nor SNBA nor Sabena, so actually there is no interest for me in defending them. However, I find it totally unfair towards the Belgian companies who, back in 2001, have invested in SN Brussels Airlines. Those companies - who are actually "the airline" - did that for two major reasons: to reduce the employment bloodshed after Sabena's bankruptcy and to keep Brussels Airport online at decent rates for their own companies, for the general Belgian business world and for leisure. Some of these shareholders were hit quite hard by the economic and/or financial crisis of 2008/2009 (and for some still ongoing), hence their unability to increase their share - and to accept Lufthansa's offer. However, fact is that they have indeed limited the employment bloodshed in 2001/2002, and they still deserve respect for that.

While I don't disagree that the Belgian aviation industry has the orgininal shareholders to thank for providing some continued jobs in the wake of the Sabena bankruptcy, let's not magnify it too much.

SN Brussels Airlines didn't create many new jobs, as most jobs were a straightforward transfer from DAT. So SN Brussels Airlines saved DAT jobs more than it saved Sabena jobs. Those DAT jobs would have been saved anyway, as a VEX-DAT merger was in the makings until SN Air Holdings came in to stop it by taking over DAT.
VG Airlines was also an attempt to restart longhaul flights out of BRU and there were plans to cooperate with VEX, but this attempt was also rendered difficult as the government supported SN Air Holdings. Van Gaever who was starting up VG but was also the brain behind DAT, EAT and VLM was given the bureaucratic treatment by the BCAA and other instances. One could say that they had a huge political headwind, probably due to his political orientations.

In addition, since he LH inclusion, working conditions have deteriorated for all the staff at SN.
Yes they are jobs, but one could no longer name them good jobs. Nett pay is low, workload is high, processes worthy of a skydivitng operation, job security uncertain and happiness levels are low, except maybe among the high seniority captains and cabin crew.

To say that the SN shareholders are heroes and that we should be thankful to them is a bit too much for me.
If you say that about LH it would be an insult for me and my ex-colleagues at SN as they promised the world (Star hub, Africa expansion support, etc...) and did nothing but put more pressure on the managers (who in turn put pressure on their own staff) and the entire operation.

If SN Brussels Airlines wasn't developed and instead a VG-DAT-VEX company lead by Van Gaever would have been suppoted by the government, the Belgian aviation landscape may have had a more promising future than now and could have provided better jobs and happiness.
So if I had to choose, I would prefer that a Vlaams Belang aviation tycoon would run a succesful Belgian airline through his savoir-faire, rather than a bunch of political moderate investors who have no clue nor interest as to how to run a succesful airline.

http://www.standaard.be/cnt/dst22052002_102


Edit: found a nice article about the above subject

Karel Van Hoorebeke ondervraagt Verhofstadt over boycot VG Airlines
Karel Van Hoorebeke (N-VA) heeft heden een mondelinge vraag ingediend in commissie, gericht tot eerste minister Guy Verhofstadt, met betrekking tot de wijze waarop VG AIRLINES door de overheid wordt behandeld.

http://www.politiek.net/hermes/4215

I see this pro-SN propaganda as uninformed or misleading. It's an aviation forum, some people know what has or has not happened, so don't expect that everyone will just nod and agree.

[RoMax]

So a total of 48 aircrafts. While in 2016 there should be maybe 45 aircraft. But as they are more destination than before, it means that the frequencied drastically decreased in order to use bigger aircraft. It´s a bit sad as if there is more frequency, the client have a beter flexibility.

Roughly the same amount of aircraft (slightly less maybe), but a much higher capacity (more A330's, more A319's which now also have more seats with the Recaro seats, more A320's (compared to 'just' 5 737-400's which had roughly the same capacity)). Frequency is down on certain routes compared to some years ago, that's true, but not significantly. Depending on the route, maybe 1 or 2 flights less. Important business destinations still have at least 3 flights a day, less important ones have 1 or 2 per day.

Frequency is great, but not if the costs of an extra rotation are too high compared to the benefit you get from it by being able to offer a higher frequency. SN (and before that Sabena) had been operating lots of flights within Europe which were basicly about empty even with the regional aircraft just because they wanted to offer the high frequency...well the costs are too high for that (and for example kerosine prices are currently much higher than in the days of Sabena). SN currently operates a slightly lower frequency on certain routes, but with much lower costs (not only because they operate less flights, but also because they generate more efficiency from the bigger aircraft). Now also their loadfactors are getting better because SN took the empty flights out of their schedule.

[RoMax]

Van Gaever who was starting up VG but was also the brain behind DAT, EAT and VLM was given the bureaucratic treatment by the BCAA and other instances. One could say that they had a political headwind.

If SN Brussels Airlines wasn't developed and instead a VG-DAT-VEX company lead by Van Gaever would have been suppoted by the government, the Belgian aviation landscape may have had a more promising future than now and could have provided better jobs and happiness.

I'm not saying Van Gaever doesn't know what he is doing, not at all. But VG Airlines was for various reasons doomed to fail and politics may have had some influence, VG would have failed anyway. I don't know how to say it in English, but in Dutch I would say: "VG hing met haken en ogen aan elkaar".

[Flanker2]

Not at all, VG Airlines had everything to be succesful.

The original investors into SN Air Holdings were probably convinced that SN would become a golden goose through its African network... As SN missed target after target, the more institutional investors decided to take the defensive approach and to opt out at the first opportunity...presented by LH.

So I think that VG Airlines presented a big conflict of interest for the investors of SN Air Holdings, as it had intentions to expand into Africa. The U.S. was only the first step as it was the easiest.

I think that Van Gaever knew very well what he was doing, but he did not expect such a big political opposition, which forced them to fly the A330's empty to JFK for months, in order to keep their slot (that's what I was told anyway by one of his close business partners/friends), until they decided to pull the plug.
When Van Gaever got fed up and sold his shares, the end became predictable.

Edit:
Here I found a new article, wherein it shows that Van Gaever's goal was to establish a new Belgian flag carrier
http://www.flightlevel.be/1201/vg-airlines

It also states Van Gaever's intentions to start flights to South America and Asia.

So little people know about the VG Airlines controversy. If you know the story, you realise that it may have been the biggest lost opportunity for the Belgian aviation sector...

[RoMax]

I'm sorry I know the story (though I admit not from the time they were actually operating, but more afterwards from reading a lot but mainly from talking to 'people'), but I have never seen much of a golden future in VG. But that's probably my shortsighted, naive vision Ok, seriously again.

But I don't see what this has to do with SN's fleet replacement actually? Even if VG might have had a great future without politics intervening (which is obviously the easy explenation for them, if you do know the whole story, you know there is much more behind it), it's is gone now anyway. Ok it may be somehow related to your vision on how a major Belgian airline could have generated more Belgian jobs than SN is doing now, but even that discussion doesn't belong in the topic of the fleet replacement, does it (not saying you started this sidestory..)?

[CTBke]

another A319 will enter the fleet before the summer period, as it is hard to find A319s in Europe no info yet about where it will come from...

[tolipanebas]

Ex OO-DJZ in the colours of its new operator, Greek charter airline Ellinair:

http://www.airliners.net/photo/Ellinair ... 2400142/L/

I must say it looks good, but the new owner ditched the extrelemy comfortable 2-3 seating configuration (82 seats) it had at SN, for the cramped 3-3 seating configuration (96 seats, or just 2 less than on the bigger RJ100 at SN).

[crew1990]

Any news about the 2 A319 wich will join the fleet?

[tolipanebas]

Well, the 6th A320 is already in BRU and officially accepted.
The 15th and 16th A319 have been identified too, with the first one undergoing preparatory maintenance in Ostrava right now. It will arrive in BRU in a couple of weeks, so in time for the summer time table which sees a boost of capacity on several routes.
The other one will arrive mid-June, just in time to give back up to the opening of the 9 new summer routes.

[crew1990]

Yes I already see that the Bilbao flight will now be operated on Airbus, no Avro anymore

Do you have an information where those aircraft comes from?