Brussels Airlines future and financial perspective

[travellover]

Another map (polar view, the real proportion of the earth vs Mercator map) showing the perspective of both routes NRT (time for NH or SN to open the route?) and PEK (HU codesharing with SN) connecting BRU and beyond to several SN destinations in western (DKR, ROB, OUA, LFW) and central Africa (YAO, FIH, LAD). Confirming that BRU has a connecting potential between East Asia and West Africa and, to a lesser extend Central Africa. IST with TK is a leading competitor and DXB is an interesting hub to connect to the eastern part of Africa.

[Passenger]

Another map (polar view, the real proportion of the earth vs Mercator map) showing the perspective of both routes NRT (time for NH or SN to open the route?) and PEK (HU codesharing with SN) connecting BRU and beyond to several SN destinations in western (DKR, ROB, OUA, LFW) and central Africa (YAO, FIH, LAD). Confirming that BRU has a connecting potential between East Asia and West Africa and, to a lesser extend Central Africa. IST with TK is a leading competitor and DXB is an interesting hub to connect to the eastern part of Africa.

Take the same map and replace Brussels by Amsterdam.
Take the same map and replace Brussels by Frankfurt.
Take the same map and replace Brussels By Paris.
Is Brussels really better placed - in such way that it could compete against the already existing hubs in AMS, FRA or PAR?

This Japan saga has been discussed here before (in the Narita topic) and there is no solid base for a Belgian airline: no scheduled groups by Belgian touroperators, no large Belgian community in Japan for VFR traffic, no scheduled groups "Belgium only" by Japanese touroperators.

The only benefit for Brussels/Belgium is that its halfway between Paris and Amsterdam. So let us focus on selling our chocolate to them, let us sell museum tickets for the Flemish Masters artwork at Bruges and Ghent and let's promote Brussels as Manneke Pis' homestead. But don't expect them to use a Belgian airline for a trip that starts or ends in Paris.

[Inquirer]

A few thoughts about what has been said above:

1- about moving the BRU flights to the main hub in case you ask for too much extra feeding flights:
I got an angry PM because I was seemingly advocating the closure of BRU?!
Allow me to say it was definitely NOT the case; I was just trying to illustrate the risk there is if you start to make the case for too much extra global feed to your local hub too strongly within a multinational group, so it's better to temper demands and ask for only the most obvious routes first, routes which also have a good point-to-point potential: I think this is the context in which their focus on the USA has to be understood too, BTW.

2- as to a Japan route:
I agree that Tokyo would probably make most sense of all the Asian routes proposed so far, given what I have said above in relation to the good point-to-point potential of any route.
However, from the many quotes in this topic as well as a previous discussion on this issue, I've retained that it will be predominantly a business route over a leisure route, so that means you'll have to serve it with high frequency. On top of that, you have to come with a cabin layout adapted to large numbers of business class passengers too then, so I doubt a plane similar in configuration to the ones they are using right now is very suitable for it, so I can somehow understand why they keep away from it now.
Not because there is no market, but because it becomes too expensive an operation for just one extra dot.
I agree the feed to Africa can help make the case for a Tokyo flight, although I doubt it's the Sahel region of Africa which is of great interest to Japan?

A potential solution to this problem could be ANA.
I remember they were seriously looking at BRU as a future 787 destination and they may be the better one to actually operate a Japan route in future, given the fact they have the right plane available and can benefit from their bigger size to immediately reach a critical mass.

Again, not a very sexy approach to rely on partner feed, but one that stands more chance of turning into reality, IMHO.

[convair]

Very logical analysis once again Inquirer, but SN cannot expect to grow by merely waiting for the opportunities to codeshare with *Alliance partners. Some (obviously reasonnable and limited, but also sometimes a little bold) positive action is also needed.

[Inquirer]

Very logical analysis once again Inquirer, but SN cannot expect to grow by merely waiting for the opportunities to codeshare with *Alliance partners. Some (obviously reasonnable and limited, but also sometimes a little bold) positive action is also needed.

I would first of all focus on trying to stay lean and simple!
Adding a single yet very long Asian route is in contradiction to that and it is something which is very likely going to be reflected in the costs somehow, I would think?

What you truely want is simple expansion, in which case it's generally better to increase on what you're already doing rather than to start doing something completely new, so my guess is they will concentrate on transatlantic or African destinations for the near future and simply add on that, possibly by reshuffling some within the group to reduce the risks even further?

Just as in the case above where ANA could very well be the solution to the problem of Brussels on Japan, Brussels could be the solution to a problem other airlines within the group may face: being part of a group is not just about being restricted in your own ambitions, it's also about getting opportunities which otherwise would be out of reach for you.

They could talk to Swiss and Lufthansa to see if the relatively few Central African flights those 2 operate are really still making much sense from a wider perspective too, or whether it wouldn't be better to relocate and concentrate them in BRU?
The same can be valid for some transatlantic flights too, maybe, notably those from Düsseldorf which will soon be abandoned by Lufthansa as they pass on this base to Germanwings?
The above 2 are just illustrations of relatively simple expansion in comparison to for instance a japan route and might make far more sense, especially from a group's perspective.

[RoMax]

Related to Korongo and Africa-China. Ethiopian Airlines wants to launch a new subsidiary in Kinshasa to feed their hub in ADD (mainly on the popular routes to China). After Togo and Malawi this will be their 3rd regional hub in Africa.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-02-0 ... emand.html

[OO-ITR]

Come on, passengers. A lot of comparaisons have been made by media, magazines, and SN is significantly more expensive than FR, on average.

what comparisons??? state your sources please !!!

[Anonymous320]

Asia-routes aren't in the strategic plans for the near future. SN lives by the grace of LH and to ensure continuing support they will strictly adhere towards their recommendations and instructions. It was a near miracle Gustin managed to get the Lufthansa 'vorstand' on board for USA-operations. SN is now expected to show results on those routes before any other expansion-plans are even considered. So the play-ground for the coming years (concerning long-haul operations) is very clear: Successful growth on the Africa- and USA-routes.

In his last meeting towards personnel Gustin pointed this out and laid out a growth-model (backed by LH) for the near future.
In this model SN should have four USA-destinations by 2018 and a fleet of 10 to 12 A330. It is not sure when the next USA-route will be opened.
The RJ will leave the company latest 2016 an by 2018 a fleet of 30-35 A32F should be operational on European routes.
A completely new onboard product will gradually be introduced.

These are the only plans made public.

The fact that LH is backing up this plan, financially and operationally, is a sign they have not given up on SN. This doesn't mean SN is in the green zone, but according to all standards set in 2011 they are still on track to getting break-even and eventually profitable.

[Flanker2]

Asia-routes aren't in the strategic plans for the near future. SN lives by the grace of LH and to ensure continuing support they will strictly adhere towards their recommendations and instructions. It was a near miracle Gustin managed to get the Lufthansa 'vorstand' on board for USA-operations. SN is now expected to show results on those routes before any other expansion-plans are even considered. So the play-ground for the coming years (concerning long-haul operations) is very clear: Successful growth on the Africa- and USA-routes.

In his last meeting towards personnel Gustin pointed this out and laid out a growth-model (backed by LH) for the near future.
In this model SN should have four USA-destinations by 2018 and a fleet of 10 to 12 A330. It is not sure when the next USA-route will be opened.
The RJ will leave the company latest 2016 an by 2018 a fleet of 30-35 A32F should be operational on European routes.
A completely new onboard product will gradually be introduced.

These are the only plans made public.

The fact that LH is backing up this plan, financially and operationally, is a sign they have not given up on SN. This doesn't mean SN is in the green zone, but according to all standards set in 2011 they are still on track to getting break-even and eventually profitable.

I hope that the "completely new onboard product gets rid of the slimline seats LH forced upon SN, at least in the more premium cabins. I hope that it comes with wifi connectivity, tables large enough to hold a laptop and maybe PTV's. For business class, I hope that they offer a decent hard product that you can name business class instead of the current "just pretend that it's business class" product. A la carte food choices sounds good, they were already announced.
Otherwise, it will be a waste of money.

SN is now expected to show results on those routes before any other expansion-plans are even considered. So the play-ground for the coming years (concerning long-haul operations) is very clear: Successful growth on the Africa- and USA-routes.

LH is backing up SN's plans because they don't care, all they want is that SN stays away from LH and LX's markets. LH's interest is not to develop SN into a LX, Inquirer has already reminded us why we shouldn't have such expectations.
LH is sending a clear message here once again. It says clearly: "we don't want to develop SN, we prefer to miss the opportunities and potential rewards, rather than take the risk of developing it. Our goal is not to make money in Africa with SN, our goal is to impede AF/KL from making too much money in Africa."

To me it seems that SN is used as a tool by LH to inflict 100 millions of damage per year to AF/KLM, at a price of just 10 millions a year or even less. That makes sense for LH, but it also means that SN will be stuck between life and death until it dies, which for me is a disappointing destiny.
LH will probably inject enough money (through capital dilution or loans) to keep SN on life support and approve Gustin's small little prestige projects in the USA to keep him and the shareholders owning the rest of the company happy.

I think that SN deserves better than that. SN deserves to have passionate investors who will not use SN as a whore but make it grow like it's their own baby.

In a few years or sooner, we will realise that all these discussions about developing SN, changing SN, saving SN; were a total waste of time, energy, mega-bytes and temper.
All we will be left with is the pride to know that we tried... with the little words we right in the boxes of luchtzak.be

[RoMax]

I hope that the "completely new onboard product gets rid of the slimline seats LH forced upon SN, at least in the more premium cabins. I hope that it comes with wifi connectivity, tables large enough to hold a laptop and maybe PTV's. For business class, I hope that they offer a decent hard product that you can name business class instead of the current "just pretend that it's business class" product. A la carte food choices sounds good, they were already announced.
Otherwise, it will be a waste of money.

I don't know the details of course, but I doubt very much it will be a new hard product (actually I'm sure it will not be). Besides, you know we are talking about Europe you know? Any idea of the cost of the products you are talking about for flights almost all under the 2 hours?? Do you really expect pax to pay for that?! The only reason I see when they should introduce such a product, is when they decide to develop a dedicated medium haul fleet for routes like Tel Aviv, Moscow, thin African routes,...

[Flanker2]

I hope that the "completely new onboard product gets rid of the slimline seats LH forced upon SN, at least in the more premium cabins. I hope that it comes with wifi connectivity, tables large enough to hold a laptop and maybe PTV's. For business class, I hope that they offer a decent hard product that you can name business class instead of the current "just pretend that it's business class" product. A la carte food choices sounds good, they were already announced.
Otherwise, it will be a waste of money.

I don't know the details of course, but I doubt very much it will be a new hard product (actually I'm sure it will not be). Besides, you know we are talking about Europe you know? Any idea of the cost of the products you are talking about for flights almost all under the 2 hours?? Do you really expect pax to pay for that?! The only reason I see when they should introduce such a product, is when they decide to develop a dedicated medium haul fleet for routes like Tel Aviv, Moscow, thin African routes,...

I don't see it as pax paying for that... I see it as SN offering more service and comfort and value for the money that their pax are paying today.

We could argue that it's unrealistic to offer more service for lower cost on a 2 hour flight. It's so easy to sell a "new product" or "more service", the "personal touch", but do pax want to pay more for all that hot air?
One could argue that 300 extra euro's will pay you a personal sexy hostess to give you a 1 hour ride to heaven... which sounds better than anything SN can offer on their 2 hour flight as their "personal touch".

Personally, if I would book a business class seat on a 2 hour flight for 800€ return, I expect a reclinable throne and sexy hostesses walking around in monokini and cherishing the spanks that the pax were dealing them.

[RoMax]

I don't see it as pax paying for that... I see it as SN offering more service and comfort and value for the money that their pax are paying today.

Impossible. Any idea what's the cost of a proper business class seat (even for a narrowbody), leave aside PTV's throughout the cabin. These are expenses that airlines are not able to pay for on the European market. Passengers don't want to pay more for these things on such short flights and airlines are not able to offer these kind of things with the current ticket prices (which are being kept low because of the LCC's). The only thing I could see developing on board European fleets is wifi.

Personally, if I would book a business class seat on a 2 hour flight for 800€ return, I expect a reclinable throne and sexy hostesses walking around in monokini and cherishing the spanks that the pax were dealing them.

Point is, people don't pay such prices on European flights, unless they really need to take these flights and really want to fly business. What would be the percentage of the b.business pax actually full paying pax? I bet it is very very low and that's not going to increase with a better hard product, not without a drop in ticket prices (which is madness if you upgrade to an expensive, unflexible but more comfortable product). Most pax are either transfer pax flying business on the long haul sectors, you can't put those in economy on their EU transfer. And the other part is generated from company contracts. Both of these groups are important for the company, but not the high paying kind of pax that could cover the high cost of a new luxury hard product.

It's for a reason that no EU carrier operate real business class anymore (except for example BA on their medium haul A321's flying to e.g. the Middle East). The last carrier I can think of that introduced business class seats on narrowbody aircraft in Europe on short intra-EU flights, was Olympic Air (only for the LHR flights which were previously operated by A340's by the previous Olympic)...

SN did introduce business class seats on their Korongo 737, but that's obviously another market situation. Just like you see in the US domestic and Asian and South American domestic/regional markets. But those regions are really valuable comparison to Europe.

[sean1982]

Personally, if I would book a business class seat on a 2 hour flight for 800€ return, I expect a reclinable throne and sexy hostesses walking around in monokini and cherishing the spanks that the pax were dealing them.

If anyone deserves spanks then it's you for such a comment.

[Passenger]

I hope that the "completely new onboard product gets rid of the slimline seats LH forced upon SN, at least in the more premium cabins. I hope that it comes with wifi connectivity, tables large enough to hold a laptop and maybe PTV's. For business class, I hope that they offer a decent hard product that you can name business class instead of the current "just pretend that it's business class" product. A la carte food choices sounds good, they were already announced. Otherwise, it will be a waste of money.

What is your practical experience with Brussels Airlines' Business Class to state with such arrogance that the Seats are bad and that it's all “just pretend it’s business Class”? How many flights have you flown in C-class? None, my guess. It’s pobably just like your practical experience with your Kinshasa airport report, where you stated that it took you just a few minutes to drive from Kinshasa Airport to the Memling. Only problem: your source was not own experience, like you pretended, but Google Earth. You saw an airport near Kinshasa and indeed concluded “that is just a few blocks from the city”. But hey, you googled the wrong airport: your theory was based upon the smaller N’Dolo airport near downtown Kinshasa, and not FIH N’Djili International Airport, lots of dangerous miles away from the city centre.

So my guess is that you have never flown Business Class on Brussels Airlines. And probably also not even in Y, because aren’t they on your famous blacklist? Your source is probably some negative comments somehere on the net (probably airtrax) where you off course forgot to read the good comments.

And talking about Brussels Airlines' meals in Business Class: to call Geert Van Hecke’s selection “a waste of money” is also quite arrogant, unless you can compare it to the platters at De Karmeliet itself.

[sean1982]

I hope that the "completely new onboard product gets rid of the slimline seats LH forced upon SN, at least in the more premium cabins. I hope that it comes with wifi connectivity, tables large enough to hold a laptop and maybe PTV's. For business class, I hope that they offer a decent hard product that you can name business class instead of the current "just pretend that it's business class" product. A la carte food choices sounds good, they were already announced. Otherwise, it will be a waste of money.

What is your practical experience with Brussels Airlines' Business Class to state with such arrogance that the Seats are bad and that it's all “just pretend it’s business Class”? How many flights have you flown in C-class? None, my guess. It’s pobably just like your practical experience with your Kinshasa airport report, where you stated that it took you just a few minutes to drive from Kinshasa Airport to the Memling. Only problem: your source was not own experience, like you pretended, but Google Earth. You saw an airport near Kinshasa and indeed concluded “that is just a few blocks from the city”. But hey, you googled the wrong airport: your theory was based upon the smaller N’Dolo airport near downtown Kinshasa, and not FIH N’Djili International Airport, lots of dangerous miles away from the city centre.

So my guess is that you have never flown Business Class on Brussels Airlines. And probably also not even in Y, because aren’t they on your famous blacklist? Your source is probably some negative comments somehere on the net (probably airtrax) where you off course forgot to read the good comments.

And talking about Brussels Airlines' meals in Business Class: to call Geert Van Hecke’s selection “a waste of money” is also quite arrogant, unless you can compare it to the platters at De Karmeliet itself.

You seriously need a new song to sing .... To keep bringing stuff up from 2-3-4 years ago is getting dull. Maybe get up to speed on current affairs first. Flanker had a good point.

[RoMax]

I hope that the "completely new onboard product gets rid of the slimline seats LH forced upon SN, at least in the more premium cabins. I hope that it comes with wifi connectivity, tables large enough to hold a laptop and maybe PTV's. For business class, I hope that they offer a decent hard product that you can name business class instead of the current "just pretend that it's business class" product. A la carte food choices sounds good, they were already announced. Otherwise, it will be a waste of money.

And talking about Brussels Airlines' meals in Business Class: to call Geert Van Hecke’s selection “a waste of money” is also quite arrogant, unless you can compare it to the platters at De Karmeliet itself.

You seriously need a new song to sing .... To keep bringing stuff up from 2-3-4 years ago is getting dull. Maybe get up to speed on current affairs first. Flanker had a good point.

Flanker is talking about the short/medium haul product. The 'Star Meals' is only for long haul. And to Sean, no he has not a good point when talking about the short/medium haul narrowbody fleet (read my previous posts).

[Passenger]

I hope that the "completely new onboard product gets rid of the slimline seats LH forced upon SN, at least in the more premium cabins. I hope that it comes with wifi connectivity, tables large enough to hold a laptop and maybe PTV's. For business class, I hope that they offer a decent hard product that you can name business class instead of the current "just pretend that it's business class" product. A la carte food choices sounds good, they were already announced. Otherwise, it will be a waste of money.

What is your practical experience with Brussels Airlines' Business Class to state with such arrogance that the Seats are bad and that it's all “just pretend it’s business Class”? How many flights have you flown in C-class? None, my guess. It’s pobably just like your practical experience with your Kinshasa airport report, where you stated that it took you just a few minutes to drive from Kinshasa Airport to the Memling. Only problem: your source was not own experience, like you pretended, but Google Earth. You saw an airport near Kinshasa and indeed concluded “that is just a few blocks from the city”. But hey, you googled the wrong airport: your theory was based upon the smaller N’Dolo airport near downtown Kinshasa, and not FIH N’Djili International Airport, lots of dangerous miles away from the city centre.

So my guess is that you have never flown Business Class on Brussels Airlines. And probably also not even in Y, because aren’t they on your famous blacklist? Your source is probably some negative comments somehere on the net (probably airtrax) where you off course forgot to read the good comments.

And talking about Brussels Airlines' meals in Business Class: to call Geert Van Hecke’s selection “a waste of money” is also quite arrogant, unless you can compare it to the platters at De Karmeliet itself.

You seriously need a new song to sing .... To keep bringing stuff up from 2-3-4 years ago is getting dull. Maybe get up to speed on current affairs first. Flanker had a good point.

Same old song out of Ryanair's offices: "the enemy of my enemy is my friend".

[Flanker2]

Well Passenger, tell us, who's enemy are you?
You are the friend of SN's PR department (even though I doubt that you can have a big impact on this forum, except to replicate the management's propaganda towards fans/employees), but are you the friend of SN itself?

Without a superior product to differentiate itself, SN will not withstand Ryanair and Vueling that long.
SN's current business class is a low-cost economy seat/hard bench slimline seat with a few extra's and flexible tickets. No one is buying it.
Even if the transfer market is the main focus of the business class, the experience starts there. People who fly business class expect product continuity between short and longhaul.
I must remind you that pax who transfer, don't do it for their convenience, they do it for the convenience of the airline.

So after your 8 hour longhaul journey, the last thing you want is to sit on a hard bench for 1 or 2 hours.
That alone can make the whole trip a negative experience.

To be able to call your pax "guests", you need to treat them as such. One of the first steps would be to recognise that the guest's comfort is the host's primary focus. Comfort means a wide seat, legroom, if possible an angled reclining and some privacy so that a tired businessman can have a rest on his way back from a hard day of work. On the way out, the same businessman might want to keep track of his e-mails, hence wifi would be a convenience. PTV would keep children busy, even if these days you see (too) many kids walking around with tablet computers. So many airlines decide to offer a tablet as IFE.

My experience of SN's short and longhaul business class is very widely advanced. I was one of the first to sit on the SN slimline seats and that's before they were even installed... I like the old A319 seats better, they were and felt very comfy, even though their backrest was 20cms thick.
As for FIH, been there, done that, so you can keep repeating to yourself whatever you want about whatever it is you are repeating. It's obvious that you're trying to play with my credibility, but I nor anyone else cares but you... are you looking to steal Geert Sciot's job?
I'm not even sure that Geert Sciot would want me to shut up, after all I think that SN can use different people's opinions and views to construct their own vision. They have a program for that called B.inventive.

[Inquirer]

Please, keep WiFi out of planes, especially if it is not restricted to just e-mail reading!

The last thing I'd want is to have somebody sitting around me browsing youtube together with his girlfriend and having the volume all up; they may enjoy all that, but there really is no need to enforce their 'pleasures' on fellow travelers!!!!!

[sean1982]

Please, keep WiFi out of planes, especially if it is not restricted to just e-mail reading!

The last thing I'd want is to have somebody sitting around me browsing youtube together with his girlfriend and having the volume all up; they may enjoy all that, but there really is no need to enforce their 'pleasures' on fellow travelers!!!!!

and what's WIFI doing in this topic? Having said that, Norwegian has been doing it for years and there are no complaints ... there is a very modern invention called: earphones??