Brussels Airlines' fleet renewal

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convair
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Re: Replacement of Brussels Airlines' Boeing & Avro RJ fleet

Post by convair »

RoMax wrote:.

I believe the CSeries will be part of the replacement (whith LH being able to place a follow up order under presumably nice conditions as an early and 'big' high-profile customer).
That would be nice of course, if the money is there as you point out. But don't you think SN needs a few aircraft with lower than 100 seats capacity for some destinations currently served with RJ100 and/or DH4, such as Oslo, Bologne, Florence, Basel, Strasburg, Bilbao, Birmingham, Bristol, Edinburgh, Toulouse, Marseille, Hamburg, Hannover, Stockholm, Turin...
For the other destinations Linate, Gothenburg, Prague, Budapest, Lyon, Manchester, there already is a partial switch to A319, so a full switch seems possible.

Also the CS could probably not join the fleet before 2016 if ordered now. Do you know when the RJ100 leases expire? CR7s could be a temporary solution (one more!) for an airline that has not fully recovered yet (to say the least many people on this forum will add!) and is still trying to find its balance.

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RoMax
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Re: Replacement of Brussels Airlines' Boeing & Avro RJ fleet

Post by RoMax »

convair wrote:But don't you think SN needs a few aircraft with lower than 100 seats capacity for some destinations currently served with RJ100 and/or DH4, such as Oslo, Bologne, Florence, Basel, Strasburg, Bilbao, Birmingham, Bristol, Edinburgh, Toulouse, Marseille, Hamburg, Hannover, Stockholm, Turin...
I do think that as well...but the worldwide trend is going upwards (when talking about the average capacity per aircraft). Routes that used to be operated by CRJ-200's or E145's for example are currently operated by jets such as the CRJ-700 or E170/175...so who knows that SN decides to not go any lower as about 100 seats per aircraft. But yes I also have the feeling it will be too big for certain routes. But no I don't believe a Q400NG fleet is the solution.
convair wrote: Also the CS could probably not join the fleet before 2016 if ordered now. Do you know when the RJ100 leases expire? CR7s could be a temporary solution (one more!) for an airline that has not fully recovered yet (to say the least many people on this forum will add!) and is still trying to find its balance.
I believe the replacement was said to start in 2015 already, so yes that seems to fast, unless they start with adding A32F aircraft and only CSeries as from 2016 (besides does have LH slots that could ensure earlier deliveries? But I believe IF they have those, they will have to firm these this year by the latest otherwise Bombardier will have to assign the slots to other customers or they end up with holes in their production).
Otherwise CRJ's could be a temporary solution indeed.

convair
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Re: Replacement of SN's Avro RJ and B737 fleet

Post by convair »

tolipanebas wrote:
MR_Boeing wrote:About the Cseries. I know they are more efficient than the current E-jets, but we would have to wait until 2014 to get the first. That's still a long time if you know the leasing contracts (for the Avro's) are all due to end in 2014 or earlier.
Indeed, yet note that only the leases on the smaller RJ85s are going to expire soon.
It's perfectly possible to first replace the oldest RJ85s with turboprops (as from next year) and then replace the later RJ85s and RJ100s with Cseries later, although I agree on the fact they'd still need to bridge a couple of extra years then, but I don't think BAe would be a hard nut to crack really. it's not like they are lining up to take RJ100s outside BAe's HQ.
MR_Boeing wrote:Another thing. The smallest is the CS100 with 100 seats in a comfortable configuration (and 110 in standard) is bigger than the RJ100's. Isn't that a bit to much for SN.
As I have said: the average size of the SN fleet needs to grow, if they want to stand a chance in the market and they know it...
MR_Boeing wrote:I give the highest chance to the E-jets of Embraer. I know they are less fuel efficient than the newer Cseries but they are much faster available.
I agree. in which case I don't see any turboprops for SN, other than a few on wetlease...
MR_Boeing wrote:If they go for the E-jets the E170 would be a nice choice. In a comfortable configuration 70 seats, that's 12 less than the current RJ85's. It could still be a bit overkill for some routes, but that problem would be rather small. The ATR 72 has the same capacity (68-74), but if they choose E170 (wich would be needed for the longer low demand routes) they don't need the ATR anymore.
Bingo!

MR_Boeing wrote:But then you say the E195. Wouldn't the E190 be a better choice? The E195 has a capacity of 108-106 in standard configuration, the E190 98-94. The E190 is almost the same as SN's RJ100's. Maybe they can have them bigger, but I would go for the E190 if you see SN's current load factor's. But it's just my idea.
As explained, the average size of the planes in their fleet needs to grow, so they need the biggest version to make up for those 12 seats lost on the swap from RJ85 to E170. Also, it would more nicely position it right in the middle between the E170 and the A319s (which will see their seatnumber increased too BTW) and it's not like they need the extra range the E190 offers them over the E195....Take 1/3rd E170s and 2/3rd E195s and you have it all sorted out.
Quite an interesting exchange of views you had with tolipanebas 3 and a half years ago! ;) It looks like it's still very valid today.

Flanker2
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Re: Replacement of Brussels Airlines' Boeing & Avro RJ fleet

Post by Flanker2 »

RoMax wrote:From what I heard (but they are just rumours) the options SN was looking at A32F, CSeries or a combination. Meanwhile SN's decision is said to be presented to LH for evaluation.

Personally I don't think SN (or LH) wants to play around too much with the current generation regional jets and instead make a final and firm replacement at once. Of course it has to be financially viable...which is the big problem when talking about SN.

I agree with extra A320's/A319's, but not exactly with CR7's, I believe the CSeries will be part of the replacement (whith LH being able to place a follow up order under presumably nice conditions as an early and 'big' high-profile customer).
What's the point of having a mix of A32S and Cseries to replace 12 RJ100's?
The CS100 is a total dog economically: Swiss are going to stuff 125 seats in it in a very cozy configuration, just to make it viable. They must have realised that they can't make money with 110 seats.
FlightMate wrote:What about the superjet? Thought it was high on their list, 7-8 years ago.
The SSJ production rate is too slow, the backlog at the current rate of production goes well into 2020's.
Sukhoi have not been able to ramp-up their production, this seems to be a decades long continued problem with the Russian manufacturing environment. It takes a Stalin to keep things flowing...
convair wrote:I wouldn't be surprised if LH was to pass on to SN a number of their CRJ700s, while increasing its own fleet of the 900s.
Increasing the fleet of CR9's, I doubt it, they seem to be hooked up on the Ejets.

Passing on the CR7's to SN? If they are owned by LH and written down, I guess that they could lease them out to SN at a reasonable rate. The CR7 would reduce the trip costs by reducing fuel burn by 25% and maintenance costs. Supposing that LH agrees to lease them at the same rate as SN is paying on the RJ100, the operating cost advantage will be around 15-20% per flight.

However 1, compared to the RJ100 you loose 24% of seats. There will be a little bit of an advantage as you can manage to capture the highest yields for every flight and reduce your total operating costs whenever the RJ100 would not have been full, but it's not enough to relaunch the airline.

However 2:
I estimate that adding the CR7 and getting rid of the RJ100's will cost SN around 20-30 million euro's, between retraining SN flight, cabin and maintenance crews, D-checks that LH is holding off on the CR7's, whatever it will take to phase out the RJ100's.
So if only used as an interim solution, I think that it doesn't make sense, it would just cost as much to extend the RJ100 leases and operate them for the interim duration.


If SN was a profitable airline serving a strong market/niche, I would say to go for Ejets or Cseries, even CS100's. The Q400's wouldn't even have crossed my mind.
However, this is not the case, so I think that any other choice is not viable and certainly not realistic.

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sn26567
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Re: Replacement of Brussels Airlines' Boeing & Avro RJ fleet

Post by sn26567 »

An article from Routes Online in which it appears that SN is still the world's 3rd largest Avro RJ operator, despite the disappearance of its RJ85s:

http://www.routesonline.com/news/29/bre ... rk-update/

Numbers 1 and 2 are Swiss and CityJet, number 4 is Malmö Aviation, all the others are small players.

SN operates the Avro RJ100 on following routes:

Brussels (BRU) – Basel EuroAirport (BSL)
Brussels (BRU) – Berlin (TXL)
Brussels (BRU) – Bilbao (BIO)
Brussels (BRU) – Birmingham (BHX)
Brussels (BRU) – Bologna (BLQ)
Brussels (BRU) – Budapest (BUD)
Brussels (BRU) – Copenhagen (CPH)
Brussels (BRU) – Geneva (GVA)
Brussels (BRU) – Gothenburg (GOT)
Brussels (BRU) – Hamburg (HAM)
Brussels (BRU) – Lyon (LYS)
Brussels (BRU) – Manchester (MAN)
Brussels (BRU) – Marseille (MRS)
Brussels (BRU) – Milan (LIN)
Brussels (BRU) – Milan (MXP)
Brussels (BRU) – Nice (NCE)
Brussels (BRU) – Oslo (OSL)
Brussels (BRU) – Prague (PRG)
Brussels (BRU) – Strasbourg (SXB)
Brussels (BRU) – Stockholm (BMA)
Brussels (BRU) – Toulouse (TLS)
Brussels (BRU) – Venice (VCE)
Brussels (BRU) – Vienna (VIE)
Brussels (BRU) – Vilnius (VNO)
André
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tolipanebas
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Re: Replacement of Brussels Airlines' Boeing & Avro RJ fleet

Post by tolipanebas »

Several of the above are mixed RJ1H/A32F routes in fact and you can expect quite a few of the above to be operated solely on A32F as more Airbusses will be added over the coming months. ;)

webstermc
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Re: Replacement of Brussels Airlines' Boeing & Avro RJ fleet

Post by webstermc »

Is anything decided yet? Last info was that this was going to be decided begin december, but I didn't saw anything on luchtzak sinct then.

Which type and how many airbusses will be added? An A330 also?

convair
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Re: Replacement of Brussels Airlines' Boeing & Avro RJ fleet

Post by convair »

I have seen 1 A320 is on order. Are there more in the pipe-line?

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CTBke
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Re: Replacement of Brussels Airlines' Boeing & Avro RJ fleet

Post by CTBke »

the A320 will be most exclusively for the TLV flights ... they'll add an extra day flight in the nex summer season but nothing is comfirmed yet .. even the delivery of this ''new'' bird ...
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nordikcam
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Re: Replacement of Brussels Airlines' Boeing & Avro RJ fleet

Post by nordikcam »

sn26567 wrote:An article from Routes Online in which it appears that SN is still the world's 3rd largest Avro RJ operator, despite the disappearance of its RJ85s:
RJ85 flew from Milan Linate as SN 3150 today !

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Re: Replacement of Brussels Airlines' Boeing & Avro RJ fleet

Post by SNam »

OO-DJP is back/still in service apparently..

crew1990
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Re: Replacement of Brussels Airlines' Boeing & Avro RJ fleet

Post by crew1990 »

Why do they keep this unic RJ85 in the fleet?

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CTBke
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Re: Replacement of Brussels Airlines' Boeing & Avro RJ fleet

Post by CTBke »

Its a backup plane
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air belgium
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Re: Replacement of Brussels Airlines' Boeing & Avro RJ fleet

Post by air belgium »

RJ85 in the summer timetable to Vilnius.

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tolipanebas
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Re: Replacement of Brussels Airlines' Boeing & Avro RJ fleet

Post by tolipanebas »

air belgium wrote:RJ85 in the summer timetable to Vilnius.
You'll find the RJ85 'planned' on the 3 times daily BRS schedule too for instance, something which is not possible in combination with the exemple of VNO you've given, as there's only 1 plane left.

What you see here is that as SN loaded their second TLV, plus a daily ALC, the return to ATH as well as BIA, AJA, etc into the GDS for next summer, they are in fact short on planes, hence some routes just got 'filled' with their spare plane for now just to set something.

Which leads me to point back to my previous remark... ;)

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CTBke
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Re: Replacement of Brussels Airlines' Boeing & Avro RJ fleet

Post by CTBke »

The extra A320 will be mainly used for the TLV route.. Rumours are that the A330 will also do some TLV rotations but those are just rumours...as they are short on A330's for the moment...
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convair
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Re: Replacement of Brussels Airlines' Boeing & Avro RJ fleet

Post by convair »

tolipanebas wrote:
air belgium wrote:RJ85 in the summer timetable to Vilnius.
You'll find the RJ85 'planned' on the 3 times daily BRS schedule too for instance, something which is not possible in combination with the exemple of VNO you've given, as there's only 1 plane left.

What you see here is that as SN loaded their second TLV, plus a daily ALC, the return to ATH as well as BIA, AJA, etc into the GDS for next summer, they are in fact short on planes, hence some routes just got 'filled' with their spare plane for now just to set something.

Which leads me to point back to my previous remark... ;)
I know your information is usually reliable on that matter, but if they are indeed planning to use a few more A32S this summer, I presume they should be ordering them soon. In the past, it took several months (I'd say minimum 3) between order and first commercial flights. So far, only 1 order announced though.

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RoMax
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Re: Replacement of Brussels Airlines' Boeing & Avro RJ fleet

Post by RoMax »

convair wrote: So far, only 1 order announced though.
SN doesn't actually 'announce' new aircraft. They usually just 'pop up' at a certain moment, often thanks to information from people working for SN or based on information from certain websites regarding aircraft that are being prepared for SN.
So possibly SN is already arranging more extra aircraft than just that one we know of. Althoug that's just hypothetical, I don't know for sure of course, bit it is possible.

convair
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Re: Replacement of Brussels Airlines' Boeing & Avro RJ fleet

Post by convair »

Thanks RoMax. You're right... as often.
Last edited by convair on 10 Jan 2014, 18:02, edited 1 time in total.

crew1990
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Re: Replacement of Brussels Airlines' Boeing & Avro RJ fleet

Post by crew1990 »

Hope they plan to start operate the Airbus A321 in a futur not too far, I'm sure this bird could fit perfectly on some route with high demand like Geneve or Tel Aviv.

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