Brussels Airlines : pilots strike looming

[sean1982]

euhm sorry ... loads of Direct Entry Captains job on the market, an experienced A330 captain like that can go straight to Emirates on A380 for example, not to mention they have the right to a full Belgian Pension.

[fcw]

euhm sorry ... loads of Direct Entry Captains job on the market, an experienced A330 captain like that can go straight to Emirates on A380 for example, not to mention they have the right to a full Belgian Pension.

Sean read my post again please!
There are NO jobs for 58 years old guys.
Some don't have the granfather rights for the pension so they will be without income till they are 62 or even 65 years old.
(As for Mrats they only occasionally take DEC's and never on the whale.)

[Air Key West]

Imagine you want to book a Valentine city trip to Venice. Imagine you absolutely have to go to the Annual Trade Fair for Veterinary Goods Suppliers in Moscow on 30-31 January. Imagine you are a travel agent and one of your clients is that school that books the annual trip for the 75 last year's students, in May, to Sicily.Would you then book Brussels Airlines if there are other possibilities? The unions have given the answer to that question in their stupid press release from yesterday "no strike before 15th January":

well, of course, you might perhaps fly a blackmailer's airline to Treviso or a dictator's airline to Moscow. That will solve your problem. I'm amazed (to say the least) how selfish some members on this forum are, how much they lack any sense of solidarity or ethics.
Amazed too by reactions from those who only read what that want to read or who understand what they are willing (or capable) of understaning. See fcw's recent post this late morning.

[RoMax]

I'm amazed (to say the least) how selfish some members on this forum are, how much they lack any sense of solidarity or ethics.

Welcome to reality! 99,9% of the passengers don't care why there is a strike, they just want to fly and they have paid for it, so they have a good reason for that. Unions/pilots might think they will all come back...well please get some sense of reality as well. They don't want SN to save any more costs on staff, but at the same time they are hurting the image of the airline for months and months by threatening with actions and at a certain moment a real strike.

[convair]

I'm amazed (to say the least) how selfish some members on this forum are, how much they lack any sense of solidarity or ethics.

A well-paid corporation that is ready to jeopardize the future of its less well-paid colleagues for its own selfish interests has no ethics lesson to give to anyone!

[sean1982]

Imagine you want to book a Valentine city trip to Venice. Imagine you absolutely have to go to the Annual Trade Fair for Veterinary Goods Suppliers in Moscow on 30-31 January. Imagine you are a travel agent and one of your clients is that school that books the annual trip for the 75 last year's students, in May, to Sicily.Would you then book Brussels Airlines if there are other possibilities? The unions have given the answer to that question in their stupid press release from yesterday "no strike before 15th January":

well, of course, you might perhaps fly a blackmailer's airline to Treviso or a dictator's airline to Moscow. That will solve your problem. I'm amazed (to say the least) how selfish some members on this forum are, how much they lack any sense of solidarity or ethics.
Amazed too by reactions from those who only read what that want to read or who understand what they are willing (or capable) of understaning. See fcw's recent post this late morning.

And that "blackmailer" has paid me more then a decent wage for the last 11 years, probably more than your cabin crew colleagues will ever earn on a monthly basis during their career. What these "selfish" people are doing is trying to make you see some sense in what you're doing, and above all it show you truly and well how joe public thinks about your attitude towards your company and customers. Who is selfish here??

[airazurxtror]

I'm amazed (to say the least) how selfish some members on this forum are, how much they lack any sense of solidarity or ethics.

Solidarity ? I beg you to consider that the Belgian taxpayer will pay some sixteen million euros out of his pocket to delay by a few months the demise of Brussels Airlines. That is some solidarity !
As for the rest, my main solidarity is towards my bank account, and my ethics is to keep it out of the red - by buying tickets at reasonable - not outrageous - prices, for instance

[Inquirer]

I have to sit with what many others have written here before me: going on strike is the best gift you can do to your competitors and only makes the business case more difficult for your management (and thus ultimately also yourself) the next day when you decide to go back to work, so it's not something I'd do myself given the current state of affairs, but okay, to each his own weapon in battle, I suppose?

Working for an Australian multinational myself and visiting different sites throughout Europe on an almost weekly basis, something which has always struck me as a major difference in employee's mentality between the 'latin' Southern Europe ("tous ensembe, tous ensemble"), and the more rational Northern Europe ("the best guarantee for myself to do well, is to see my company do well"), is the (lack of) understanding that rarely do you have lethal enemies within your own management, yet the real enemies are often amongst your apprantly very supportive colleagues working at competitors.

Just saying you should be wary when you see colleagues from other airlines suddenly stand sholder to sholder with you, Air Key West, especially if those have difficulties hiding their pleasure at every setback your company may endure in other topics on this forum.

I have a feeling the union delegates at Brussels Airlines are mostly very Francophone leaning too, am I right? From the way they handle all this and inform you about their strategy and their successes, it really shows.

[FlightMate]

You think a strike influences that much the customers?

How come people are still booking AF?

Let's be honest. When you have to book a flight, you just put into balance the price, the flexibility, etc...

What are the chances of going on strike the day you travel? 0.02%?

Most important: are they the cheapest?

Friends of mine are looking for flights to japan. Aeroflot, no even though they are cheaper. Because they seem unsafe.

Alitalia? Second cheaper. No because they might go bankrupt.

I think the risk of crashing or the risk of facing a bankruptcy is higher on the list of potential passengers than the risk of going on strike. Unless yo7 go on strike every couple of weeks.

[Pocahontas]

@Convair: Indeed it is due to the unions our company has a bad financial situation. It's due to the unions that we have to wetlease HiFly a/c weekly to do our LH flights.
I want what I am entitled to, as does anyone else. Management has to stop deteriorating our working conditions. FWIW crew costs is only 6% of the total cost it seems so I think saving some peanuts on those 6% will not turn the financial balance. My 2 cents...

[RoMax]

How come people are still booking AF?

So you are comparing a small airline in a highly competitive market with a market share of barely 30% at their own single hub, with the second largest airline in Europe, having total dominance of the French market? Besides, you don't think customers will think twice before booking AF?

SN has lots of competitors and in many cases they do not offer the highest frequency/most capacity and not the lowest prices... If someone has to choice to fly with an airline that has come in the news several times of the past months because of (possible) strikes and other actions, and they have an alternative...they'll go for that alternative. Unbelievable how unions (I wouldn't be suprised if you have an active function within a certain union) and pilots (often being people with strong characters, though way to often thinking about their own bank account only) minimize the effects of such actions on a small company in such a competitive market...

[FlightMate]

I don't know romax.

Honestly, I'd still book sn if they were the cheaper alternative.
It's different if they are going on strike for 2 weeks straight, or every other week.
But for a one-off, I wouldn't change my habits.

I maintain that price is much more important to pax. (leisure pax at least)
Flexibility is another factor for business pax.

People take the train, even with delays and strikes. They'll stop when it'll be more convenient and cheaper to take their car.

[Air Key West]

Welcome to reality! 99,9% of the passengers don't care why there is a strike, they just want to fly and they have paid for it

I'm also amazed when people are not 99.9 %%, but 100 % so sure about what they are saying. No nuances. It's me, me, me and me again. I am pretty sure that unlike what you think there are more then 0.01 % of people who will at least try to understand what's happening and why. And some may even sympathize,, believe it or not.

This time b.air pilots might go on strike. Everybody seems to forget the recent strikes at LH (and quite a number of other airlines). What about ATC strikes ? It just is a fundamental right, whether you like it or not. Sometimes employees abuse it, ok. Sometimes employers don't behave properly.

And that "blackmailer" has paid me more then a decent wage for the last 11 years, probably more than your cabin crew colleagues will ever earn on a monthly basis during their career.

(I have no cabin crew colleagues). But in exchange for that you have to accept everything you are told to do without protesting or you're fired. I'm probably priviliged to be able to refuse to do business with blackmailers and dictators. Anyway, I have a clear conscience, when others here don't have any conscience at all.

And what amazes me, too, is that everybody happily ignores what fcw wrote (and I will assume he's not making this up) :

Sean read my post again please!
There are NO jobs for 58 years old guys.
Some don't have the granfather rights for the pension so they will be without income till they are 62 or even 65 years old.

Two years ago the special pension fund for pilots has been abolished because the money for the fund was used to subsidise BruAir. Pilots can no longer retire at 55 and these boys are too old to find a job abroad, so they would be without income for up to 7 years.
Do you still think they are selfish?

I, Air Key West, wonder how sean, romax and a few others would feel and react if this happened to them ?

A well-paid corporation that is ready to jeopardize the future of its less well-paid colleagues for its own selfish interests has no ethics lesson to give to anyone!

I'm not a pilot, but I happen to have a fairly good idea of what b.air pilots earn. Given what is expected from them, I think they are underpaid. But I'm sure that some people here find it absolutely normal and justified that the new Belgacom boss will earn 650.000 euros a year

[sean1982]

And that "blackmailer" has paid me more then a decent wage for the last 11 years, probably more than your cabin crew colleagues will ever earn on a monthly basis during their career.

(I have no cabin crew colleagues). But in exchange for that you have to accept everything you are told to do without protesting or you're fired. I'm probably priviliged to be able to refuse to do business with blackmailers and dictators. Anyway, I have a clear conscience, when others here don't have any at all

First of all that us absolutely untrue. I have in the past and will in the future said/say no to a lot of things and have refused stuff what has always been excepted by my employer. My conscience is clear as glass, buts I would suggest you refrain from commenting on it as you dont have a clue about who I am.

Secondly, I suggest you put your reading glasses on as many of us have many times
said that the employees have all the right to fight for better rights, it's just stupid by doing it this way as they strangeling their company's image and financials at a time it is allready on life support.

Thirdly, I challenge you to go on the street and say the following: hi, I am a pilot who earns 3000-5000€ per month and I'm about to strike because I have to work to hard.
Lets see how much public support you'll get.
The only people who sympathise my dear air key west, are fellow pilots, especially the older ones who cannot seem to except that the golden years are well and truely over.
I've got news for you: there are A LOT of people who work A LOT harder than most pilots for A LOT less money

[FlightMate]

And a lot of people are working less and making more. Some are not working at all and are incredibly rich.

Is that your point?

Should a captain earn the same as a junior cabin crew? Because, let s be honest, they work the same hours.
Or should a Senior cabin crew earn the same as a waiter? Because, let s face it, most of the time, they do the same thing.

Please, compare what can be compared.

Conditions are purely market driven.
I agree, too many candidates for too few jobs, in Belgium. That s why conditions are getting worse (for every job).

As a passenger though, be careful. You pay peanuts, you get monkeys. That might become the norm in some years.
Anybody want an airline à la korean? Or like in india?

[sean1982]

First of all if you think a senior ccm does the same as a waiter I suggest you take the first CRM course and re-study the role of the cabin crew.

Next, you just answered your own question. Labour conditions are driven by market conditions. If you compare SN conditions with other Belgian airlines them they are equal to slightly better. So you've reached the limit of what the market is willing to pay. Because the flightschools keep spewing out pilots who are willing to work for a lot less than who is allready flying, you're actually allready way OVER what the Belgian market is willing to give. If you think conditions are bad now, take a good look at pilot conditions in the USA, cause that's where we are going.

Lastly, "you pay peanuts, you get monkeys" is not true either. That would mean that LCC's are unsafe which is pure populistic BS. Air France's prices have been extortionate for years allready, but that doesn't mean they are safe. Just have a look to the amount of stalls and near stalls they had over the last couple of years.

[FlightMate]

Of course I don't believe you do the same job as a waiter. Waiters work so much harder, for half the salary.
In case you haven't noticed, I was merely using your arguments...

About comparing salaries. Aren't you paid more than a sn cabin crew?
I know FR pilots are being paid much more.
Of course, pension plays a role. But don't forget most sn pilots have to work an extra 10 years, and lost the benefit of a double pension. While the company is still keeping that special contribution.

By the way, 1600 euros is not an overpaid job for a F/O. At other 'national' airlines, the starting salary would be 3 or 4x.

Like I said before, do you just want all pilots to fly abroad? Then SN would have to pay more to keep on flying. I still believe a strike cost less to the company than 20% of its pilots running away.

[sean1982]

I probably do earn more than an SN CCM, but I don't work for a Belgian company. My netto pay is over 2500€ a month but I do need to provide for my own pension. Therefore it cannot be compared.

I do believe that pilots should vote by their feet and try and improve their situation rather than trying to force a company into something they can't/won't do. Striking may be cheaper then that, but at least the image of the company is not damaged, and what you are trying to achieve is probably not doable for your company.

[fcw]

Don't forget pilots have to fund their own training (100 to 150000€).
It costs a pilot 900€/month during 15 years to pay back their training. You have to deduct these 900 from the salary!
I have flown with young F/O's (NOT at BruAir) who were sleeping in their car in the parking lot because they were based away from home and couldn't afford a hotel room.

[Air Key West]

I have in the past and will in the future said/say no to a lot of things and have refused stuff what has always been excepted by my employer

OK. Can you give us a few examples ?

I challenge you to go on the street and say the following: hi, I am a pilot who earns 3000-5000€ per month and I'm about to strike because I have to work to hard.

Now I suggest you put on your glasses. B.air pilots are not considering to go on strike because they have too hard.

Anyway, people who are responsible for the lifes of (hundreds) of other people MUST be able to do their job well rested and in good conditions. Absence of tiredness and undue stress are two of many pre-requisites for pilots being able to fly us (including you) safely to our destination (especially when the flying gets rough ;
how many aborted landings have you had because of extremely bad weather or ATC mistakes, for instance ? I have experienced a few and on two occasions at least I was EXTREMELY impressed how the pilots handled them). When you've witnessed this a number of times, you can only admit that pilots deserve good pay and working conditions. Failing to admit that is just bad faith.

I've got news for you: there are A LOT of people who work A LOT harder than most pilots for A LOT less money

I've got news for you, too : there are A LOT of people who work A LOT LESS harder than pilots for A LOT MORE money....and they don't have the lifes of (hundreds) of people (including yours) in their hands.

Pilots (and flight attendants btw, too, since the latter are primarely there for the pax safety, even if MOL keeps them busy as salespersons during most of the flight time) deserve more than average remuneration for all the reasons fcw has stated here (and which I will not repeat ; re-read them with your glasses on).

As to hurting the airline's image : many airlines have been faced with strikes (LH, forgot them ? Easyjet in France..., just to name two). OK, b.air unlike LH or EZY, is in a difficult financial situation. The pilot's fault ? No, the management's and shareholders' fault ! And as fcw rightly said, if a lot of pilots left b.air for better "skies", it would cost the airline much more in hiring new pilots. Yes, there might be a lot of young pilots waiting/wanting a job. Only, you seem to forget that you don't fly aircraft safely only with young pilots with little experience. There are certainly (international) standards to comply with (e.g. number of hours flown as f/o before being allowed to become a captain).
Experience is extremely precious and has a price tag to it. But you're too young to understand that.