BeOnTop Airlines - Liège Airport

[Flanker2]

Maastricht proved it can attract pax, Liège should do only better since it's bigger

I can not debate this because it's too simplistic a vision.

BRU and CRL are covered more than enough

This is also very simplistic. Liège is covered more than enough from Maastricht, BRU, CRL and Köln already.

LGG is cheap and the airport wants to generate new traffic.
that's a lot of good reasons I guess

What good is it to have a cheap airport if there is no demand? It's a small, rather poor city, not Las Vegas.


I think that there is room in Belgium for a new quality airline out of BRU, run in the Virgin America style.
A great experience in first class and a good experience in a cheap economy class.

[crew1990]

I think a new charter airline wouldn't be bad.

They could do the flights for TCAB from LGG plus a few from BRU.

JAF could use it during July and August when there is a extra capacity.

They could also fly some holiday destinations for some other TO from BRU.

And as stated before, Liege has a central position, not far from FRA, DUS, CGN, BRU, etc end if a company need an aicraft "in emergency", this airlines could come very quickly.

It's time for Belgium to have a 4th passenger airline!

[cnc]

do we now how they want to fill the seats? what kind of pax they want to attract etc?

[Acid-drop]

they talked about a reverse hub and spoke ...
which is rather .... wishfull thinking (but i'd love and use it)

for me the only way of filling planes in LGG is a lot of sun at the destination ... but I may be wrong

[Flanker2]

3 or 4 routes to Italy and 2 routes to Turkey are as much as is possible imo. Thats not even enough to keep 2 A320s busy.

In BRU they have much larger opportunities thanks among others to a weak home player. It will not be difficult to undercut SN on price while offering a better product.

[crew1990]

The head office will be in LGG but this doesn't mean that all the aicraft will be based there.

They might have a few flight from there but that's it. They probably have a good reson to choose LGG, it's cheaper than BRU. Less problem of slot, i don't know exactly the reason but there is one.

Also 2 aicraft in LGG can be possible with W flight. For example TCAB had las year LGG-PMI-BRU-PMI-LGG and LGG-NBE-BRU-NBE-LGG

[Passenger]

In BRU they have much larger opportunities thanks among others to a weak home player. It will not be difficult to undercut SN on price while offering a better product.

Some people get up in the morning with a Brussels Airlines phobia.
Some people go asleep with a Brussels Airlines phobia.
You do both.

[Flanker2]

For you its phobia.
For me its the truth.

[Inquirer]

Just a silly question, but what exactly is a reverse hub?
I have been trying to image something meaningful but I just can't make it work in my head, so an explanation or better still a real-world example of such an airline would be really nice. Thanks.

Concering coming to BRU, that's probably the last thing they'd need to do: they can't compete on price there, as most of the the popular routes already see low frills like Easyjet or Vueling serving them and they can't compete over the corporate segment because they have nothing to offer to frequent flyers: the idea somebody is going to pay extra for a bigger seat or a glass of real champagne is so 1990s: today, people fly network carriers only because of their superior schedules and complete flexibility, combined with their many partnerships.

[Acid-drop]

from what i remember (you'd better read the history of this thread), they want to feed big hubs from Liège.
So you would arrive 5min before you flight, park in front of the terminal, walk 35 seconds, checkin in 30 seconds and fly to FRA, LHR... (try that in BRU )
Quite a sexy idea isn't it ?
The key is to have a good partnership with all the biggest airlines obviously...

[Inquirer]

Oh, so a 'reverse hub' is just a bunch of feeding flights then?

shouldn't they join an Alliance or at the very best sign codeshare partnerships with the large network airlines of Europe?

If they can't offer a single ticket experience to the end point of a journey, I can't see this work very well!

Also, is Liege such an important blind spot in the routemaps of global airlines that those airlines can't route whatever feed there is onto their own feeder flights from BRU or DUS?

I really don't see what niche market they can offer to their would be partners???

[Acid-drop]

good question ...
the catch area is indeed no more than 1h ... not that sexy
but you could fill the planes with cargo also ...

[Stij]

I'm afraid feeding will be difficult:
to almost every hub in Europe, there are flights into every wave from AMS, BRU and DUS, with DUS and BRU being at less than 100km.

Visual:http://www.gcmap.com/mapui?R=100km@bru% ... =wls&DU=mi

So, in order to attract PAX, you would have to offer a LOT of frequencies to win it from the big ones...

So let's look at Liège itself:

There's a radio station called "Hitalia"...
They like the French...

Feed into FCO and CDG, fill the business schedule with midday and weekend flights to the Marche, Sicilia and other rural areas in Italia.

And even that will be VERY difficult IMHO...

Cheers,

Stij

[BRU]

They can take cargo, but that is only a few tons and will not make the business case. Especially if they have to compete with trucking on shorter distances to for example AMS, FRA, MUC, ... where you have daily several trucks doing the same between airports. And if it is holiday destinations they are looking for (so no reverse hub), not much cargo for those destinations. So cargo will help but not solve the problem.

Do agree that if you want to feed the hubs, you need the deals with the big airlines on codeshare and freq flyer programs. Is going to be a challenge. Competing with holiday destination and low cost destinations: Walloon governement will not allow a competitor for CRL in the region. They would start paying / investing in LGG to compete against their own investment in CRL... To do so against BRU and other airports I can understand. Not between LGG and CRL.

So really wondering how they are going to make this work in today's reality...

[LJ]

Also, is Liege such an important blind spot in the routemaps of global airlines that those airlines can't route whatever feed there is onto their own feeder flights from BRU or DUS?

Not really, but you can always dream that they are. Moreover, you see that big airlines don't contract out many flights anymore. Lufthansa cancelled most (if not all) contracts and apart from Darwin there aren't many airlines following this strategy. Finally, why would someone fly from FRA to Liège? Total travel time by train is approx 2.5 hours. Leaves only hubs like FCO etc (or doesn anyone think someone is going to waste a LHR or LGW slot for such an unimportant destination?). If LGG is not the final destination I wonder from where they see a market (unless they're goign to fly small aircraft like Darwin).

Maastricht proved it can attract pax, Liège should do only better since it's bigger

Both MST and LGG tap into the same market and this market is a small market. Economic activity in the region is not high and doesn't generate much traffic, hence why MST doesn't grow so much (with the exception of FR).

[Flanker2]

Both MST and LGG tap into the same market and this market is a small market. Economic activity in the region is not high and doesn't generate much traffic, hence why MST doesn't grow so much (with the exception of FR).

Couldn't have put it better.
If they base at LGG, they will be splitting a smaller market that is now dominated by MST.


A reverse hub system is what Cityjet/VLM do in LCY. The aircraft are based all over different bases, but they come back to their base. So as such, it won't work in LGG, but it could work if they base at LCY or similar airport.

Cargo, yes but... TAY isn't doing that great and I'm not sure that they need anyone's help.
Intra-Europe cargo will take too long to establish a network.

I think that they can do great business in BRU, maybe even in ANR.
Come to think of it, ANR could be quite a great place to base a fleet of Q400's in a 2-class config.
Free parking, check-in through boarding in 15 minutes, convenient bus links to the center and railway station. Moreover, diamond business, a lot of rich snobs in the suburbs who would like a bit of glamour when they travel but without having to step up to Flying Group or Abelag, a city council very eager to prove its worth due to political implications, and an airport desperate for traffic (remember the EU ghost airports story).

[Acid-drop]

you'll never stop talking about other airports will you ?
Keep focused on the subject please : a new airline in LGG.

Both MST and LGG tap into the same market and this market is a small market.

Small market maybe ... but the flight LGG-Tel aviv are working well it seems
Other kind of ethnic flights could fill rapidly too...

Economic activity in the region is not high and doesn't generate much traffic, hence why MST doesn't grow so much (with the exception of FR).

The region has funny issues : there are plenty of international companies which are really successful and in the same time has a lot of unemployment touching uneducated people. If you look only at the second part it looks like nobody will ever travel, but is it the case ? You seem to know the snobs of Antwerp well, do you know Liège well also ?

MST has never generated business traffic, hard to make conclusions.

What good is it to have a cheap airport if there is no demand? It's a small, rather poor city, not Las Vegas.

Charleroi was big and rich ?

[Stij]

Small market maybe ... but the flight LGG-Tel aviv are working well it seems
Other kind of ethnic flights could fill rapidly too...

After giving it some though... FR fills this market already perfectly from CRL, an hour drive away, so or they match FR's prices (kind of difficult) or the VFR traffic continues via CRL.

The region has funny issues : there are plenty of international companies which are really successful and in the same time has a lot of unemployment touching uneducated people. If you look only at the second part it looks like nobody will ever travel, but is it the case ? You seem to know the snobs of Antwerp well, do you know Liège well also ?

You're absolutely right, but I doubt there will be enough traffic to sustain an airline with BRU and DUS at an hour drive (probably) offering more frequencies?

Also, in the near future the 200km/h train between Liège and Brussels would stop at Brussels Airport, one would be there in 45min from Guillemins station, no traffic, no hustle... just an elevator

My conclusion? It won't happen!

Charleroi was big and rich ?

Don't say Charleroi, say Belgium Cheap! If it wouldn't be for the cheap fares, nobody would use it. The catchment area of low cost is larger than high end.

Cheers,

Stij

[Stij]

Visited their website today and:

There's a countdown clock to December 1st (if my calculations are right.
They have a little questionnaire asking if you would like to fly to Catania from Liège for 90€ per one-way.

Right, and what if the reverse hub is actually a couple scheduled flights a week on chartered planes into Liège?

Cheers,

Stij

[ralph]

About every airport surrounding LGG has flights to Sicilia (Trapani and/or Catania), 90 euros per one-way is nice but comparable to the others. And the other airlines are well known to the large public, compared to a new airline. They should come up with a better strategy, otherwise it will be very difficult.