2 additional frequencies to D.R.C. for Brussels Airlines

[sean1982]

Obviously not. I guess you still don't see the fact that JAF is not a charter carrier anymore (and is in fact stronger than SN in a lot of facets) and FIH operations would have nothing to do with tourists.

[HighInTheSky]

DUDE, I've been on the other side of the river. It's not that different.

I'm not planning to engage in this discussion, but just wanted to say the difference between Brazza and Kin is huge...

[RoMax]

Obviously not. I guess you still don't see the fact that JAF is not a charter carrier anymore (and is in fact stronger than SN in a lot of facets) and FIH operations would have nothing to do with tourists.

JAF will NOT serve business travellers and transfer passengers (for both Europe and North-America), that's where the money is made for SN and BRU, not the market JAF will be pointing at (and it doesn't matter if they are charter of commercial semi-LCC, that's both at the lower end of the market, that doesn't mean it can't be profitable, that just means SN can get more out of on this particular route).

[sean1982]

@romax, true, but that is not the government's choice to make. It's up to JAF to make it work.
@tolip sponsoring others (through government funding) is a fact of life. We're all paying for the child molestor in prison that needs to be kept alive. We're all paying for the alcoholic to get a new liver. This is about giving the customer the choice between high quality and frequency or lower prices.

[tolipanebas]

@romax, true, but that is not the government's choice to make. It's up to JAF to make it work.
@tolip sponsoring others (through government funding) is a fact of life. We're all paying for the child molestor in prison that needs to be kept alive. We're all paying for the alcoholic to get a new liver. This is about giving the customer the choice between high quality and frequency or lower prices.

If our government thinks it can make far more money from these 2 additional slots by giving them to SN iso JAF, then what's wrong with that? Traffic rights are an asset and they need to make best use of it, not in the interest if one company or one ethnic group, but in the interest of us all. Simple as that really.
Our government shouldn't just give away slots for the sake of stimulating choice, it must take a commercial attitude in awarding them and see which user will generate the highest return from them. I am glad they did just that.

[sean1982]

So in fact you're defending a monopoly because it fits in protecting your job (which is understandable) but imagine the government would do the same for other public services like telephone, tv, electricity, gas, water ... ??? I think not :-/ competition improves services as it keeps compagnies on their toes, stimulates growth and that is exactly what a government should be aiming for. It's up to the compagnies to make it work

[Flanker2]

Yep. Tolipanebas, your economical assessment is worth less than toilet paper.
This route is not going to change income taxation in Belgium. Nor is SN as a whole.

Sure, more money generated for SN means more money for the government and less taxes for us... wait a minute... wouldn't it make more sense to let the profitable JAF pay more taxes by letting them make a quick profit on this route, rather than reducing SN's losses, while they don't pay taxes because they're losing money?

From a taxation point of view, it doesn't make any sense to me.

Don't be naive, and don't try to hide a bear in a coke can. Davignon represents a huge conflict of interest in this story and it's obvious to everyone that it played a role.

Let's all be happy that SN, a Belgian airline, can pioneer a hub in Africa.

[ezis]

So in fact you're defending a monopoly

I disagree there is a monopoly
There's also Air France flying between Europe and Kinshasa, and we can also count Turkish and Ethiopian in for connections

This being said, I can understand the government/aministration keeping in mind how these slots can create an added value for the Belgian economy, and with the connections of SN (+ Korongo), the chances are perhaps bigger than with Jetairfly.

I understand each sides arguments, some frustrations even, but in times when every country is fighting for it's National Income I think this might play a role..

[b720]

JAF is not 'national'? We are assuming that those 2 slots will be used to enhance the FIH frequency. If that is the case they should have been awarded to JAF (had they applied for services to the RDC). If SN plans
to connect with KORONGO, that is a different story.

[flightlover]

Yep. Tolipanebas, your economical assessment is worth less than toilet paper.
This route is not going to change income taxation in Belgium. Nor is SN as a whole.

Sure, more money generated for SN means more money for the government and less taxes for us... wait a minute... wouldn't it make more sense to let the profitable JAF pay more taxes by letting them make a quick profit on this route, rather than reducing SN's losses, while they don't pay taxes because they're losing money?

From a taxation point of view, it doesn't make any sense to me.

Don't be naive, and don't try to hide a bear in a coke can. Davignon represents a huge conflict of interest in this story and it's obvious to everyone that it played a role.

Let's all be happy that SN, a Belgian airline, can pioneer a hub in Africa.

On the taxation level there is one more thing to be added. JAF is not carrying cargo at this moment, nor is it planning to do so (as far as I know). So as for national trades interests, SN is the one to go for.

[airazurxtror]

Are you willing to 'sponsor' the tickets of Congoleese heading home through higher income taxes to make up for that loss then, because let's be clear about this: less overall economic activity (and thus less tax revenues from that activity), means more taxes for the others.

Funny - from someone who stands up for an outfit making kolossal annual losses and demanding huge subsidies (aka leveling the playing field).
Let's be serious, now.
Less activity for SN would be more activity for JAF.
Why should Brussels Airlines have a monopoly on the RDC traffic ?
A nostalgy of the time when Sabena had a monopoly and enjoyed crushing all competition ?

[RoMax]

demanding huge subsidies (aka leveling the playing field).
Let's be serious, now.

:eh: :eh: :eh:

Less activity for SN would be more activity for JAF.
Why should Brussels Airlines have a monopoly on the RDC traffic ?

Do you think it's that simple? Less for SN is more for JAF? A less powerfull position of SN on this route means AF and TK can use that less attractive position of SN to decrease the competitive advantage of SN on this market.
Making sure SN is strong on this market (business traffic, transfer traffic, cargo and high end leisure traffic) delivers a much bigger advantage to the Belgian economy than having two airlines operating the route (weaking eachother) with AF and TK waiting on the sideline to run away with future growth.

[OO-ITR]

Obviously not. I guess you still don't see the fact that JAF is not a charter carrier anymore (and is in fact stronger than SN in a lot of facets) and FIH operations would have nothing to do with tourists.

well good luck then with filling your widebody with point to point pax (belgians with Congolese roots)

[OO-ITR]

Why should Brussels Airlines have a monopoly on the RDC traffic ?

Have your tried reading the arguments of several members on here? I guess they give you tons of reasons why SN got the two slots and not JAF...I recommend you to do this. It can be helpful if you reply...

[airazurxtror]

Have your tried reading the arguments of several members on here? I guess they give you tons of reasons why SN got the two slots and not JAF...

Tons of reasons boiling down to : let's clutch at our monopoly.

[convair]

At any time, but even more in the present economic situation,it's the government's duty to use these traffic rights to the best interest of the country. For many good reasons stated here, it looks obvious that the best choice for the country is SN, however frustrating it might be for the pro-JAFs and the anti-SNs.

However, whenever traffic rights are even much less limited, or indeed almost unlimited (e.g. in Europe),it is fair to allow several companies to take advantage of the opportunities.

[JAFflyer]

On the taxation level there is one more thing to be added. JAF is not carrying cargo at this moment, nor is it planning to do so (as far as I know). So as for national trades interests, SN is the one to go for.

JAF is not carrying cargo? Really? Our flights to BRU from PUJ and CUN are loaded with cargo to max take-off weight. During the earthquake in Haïti we even offered all our cargo capacity for free to the red cross on flights to PUJ. Also on Europe we carry cargo to several destinations...

[airazurxtror]

At any time, but even more in the present economic situation,it's the government's duty to use these traffic rights to the best interest of the country.

The actual Minister of Transport is Etienne Davignon, Wathelet being only his puppet : the best interest of SN seems to be confused with the best interest of the country (the best interest of the customers being completely ignored, that goes without saying).

[flightlover]

On the taxation level there is one more thing to be added. JAF is not carrying cargo at this moment, nor is it planning to do so (as far as I know). So as for national trades interests, SN is the one to go for.

JAF is not carrying cargo? Really? Our flights to BRU from PUJ and CUN are loaded with cargo to max take-off weight. During the earthquake in Haïti we even offered all our cargo capacity for free to the red cross on flights to PUJ. Also on Europe we carry cargo to several destinations...

If I was wrong about it, my mistake.
As you are so sure about it, I guess you can tell me the 3 digit airline code that precedes the airway bill?

[sn26567]

Jetairfly: complaint with the European Commission

Jetairfly has introduced a complaint to the European Commission, following a decision of the Secretary of State for Mobility, Melchior Wathelet. The latter has decided to award two additional frequencies between Brussels and the Congolese capital of Kinshasa to Brussels Airlines.

Belgium and Congo had signed a bilateral aviation agreement in February by which the Belgian government would assist the Congolese airlines to be allowed again to fly in the European airspace. In exchange, Belgium received permission to serve the Congo seven times a week.

Brussels Airlines, which is currently also based in Congo through Korongo Airlines, has traffic rights for five flights a week. Two other weekly traffic rights in the hands of Congolese company LAC, which put an end to its activities, were rented to Brussels Airlines.

Jetairfly was also requesting traffic rights to Kinshasa. Last Thursday, however, the government has decided to award two additional frequencies to Brussels Airlines. According to Jetairfly, who wished to operate two additional frequencies, this decision is "yet another proof that there is only one airline for the Belgian government and it is Brussels Airlines." "We will not allow things to happen that way and we will lodge a complaint with the European Commission. Brussels Airlines already has a monopoly on this road and it has now even the help of the government, "says Gunther Hofman, CEO of Jetairfly.

(Source: Travel Magazine 23-4-2013)