Light aircraft crash at Charleroi, 5 casualties

[crew1990]

Sad to hear that it crash for something so stupid.

However even if the pilot refuse, is it normal from the handling agent to let the aircraft go with ice on the wings? Enven them know that it won't fly.

[jan_olieslagers]

Even ATC cannot really force a pilot to obey them. At last resort, "pilot's discretion" overrules all.
Mind you, a pilot who disobeys instructions will get into trouble, surely: perhaps a solid fine, perhaps revocation of pilot's license or privileges; very likely the employer will have a word or two to say, too. But ISTR such a fact cannot figure in the pilot's criminal records ("strafblad") unless perhaps on general principles like gross negligence. IOW it is not normally a case for a criminal court, but "only" for civil court.

Beyond all discussion however: a ground handling agent has not the slightest bit of authority over a pilot.

Allow me to kindly insist: phrases like "crash for something so stupid" are not in place. Even if only out of respect to the victims and their friends and relatives. Better wait for better information, at least, before taking conclusions.

[luchtzak]

At the 19.00 RTL-TVI news : the airport agent who handled the flight said he has offered the pilot to de-ice the aircraft, but the pilot refused. He has seen the aircraft "fall like a brick".

Indeed we should wait for the final conclusion of the investigations, but if icing conditions on the wings is the cause of the accident this is really sad ...

[Biggles71]

Do you really think any skilled pilot would leave with ice on the wings before departure?
This guy was not a newbee.

Ice accumulation during the initial climb is more plausible... although nobody can confirm it... and nobody will ever be able to be 100% sure about that!

Well unfortunately quite a few experienced pilots have taken off with some ice on the wings/tails... Some walked away from it, others don't.

With regards to picking up ice immediately after take-off; pretty sure we can disregard that one with few clouds at 200ft and clear sky above.

I sincerely hope the wings/tail and engine inlet, were clean of snow and frost, when the take-off roll was started...

[jan_olieslagers]

EBCI 090850Z 21003KT 1800 BR FEW002 M03/M04 Q1019 RMK R25/090071 TEMPO 0600 FZFG BKN002=

Clear sky? with visibility 1800, and BR ? Excuse my skepticism.
And with the air at M03/M04 I think icing is a very real probability.

[Zorba]

He said: clear sky above, which is plausible.

[Biggles71]

EBCI 090850Z 21003KT 1800 BR FEW002 M03/M04 Q1019 RMK R25/090071 TEMPO 0600 FZFG BKN002=

Clear sky? with visibility 1800, and BR ? Excuse my skepticism.
And with the air at M03/M04 I think icing is a very real probability.

My mention to Sky Clear (SKC) refers to the cloud base; few cloud at 200ft (1/8 or 2/8 coverage) and 1800m is no hard core IFR. Sorry... the Tempo 600m and Broken 200ft with Freezing fog however, is solid IFR...

Anyway my initial point was; IF the wings/tail were clean, one will NEVER pick up enough ice during the take-roll and initial 200ft of the climb, to bring down the aircraft. Only exception being freezing rain and heavy wet snow. None of these conditions were present.

Be it an A380 or a C150, with regards to ice on wings/tail; "make it clean - keep it clean"

[Bracebrace]

Clear sky? with visibility 1800, and BR ? Excuse my skepticism.

Because many pilots tend to forget this, a "positive instructional" point of view :

It's a common misconception, but 1800m is a horizontal visibility. You can have perfect blue sky on days with "1800 BR" if the layer is thin. It's not much of a danger on the ground when you depart, it's more of a hassle when you overfly an airport thinking it has excellent visibility because you can see it from the air (ah the ATIS or forecast is probably outdated...), but when coming in on downwind all of a sudden the fog "is back". It was always there, but the layer was not thick so you could see through it from above/below.

[FlightMate]

Clearsky? So what?
Do you think the ice already on the wings will magically disappear?
Talking about experience, I've heard many colleagues at SN telling me the same argument. Really dangerous.
And look at Regional's crash at Pau, a few years ago.

You can probably walk out 9 times out of 10 from a T/O with ice on your wings. But one day...
It is very hard to predict how the flow of air will be on top of your wings. So always consider the worst case.

[Tomskii]

Overestimation of your skills is what makes accidents happen. I'm with RoMax on this one, think it is basic knowledge that when it freezes -> snow/rain you de-ice your plane, even if you do not see any ice on it: better safe than sorry.

[DIBO]

Or overestimation the AC's performace/capablities. Even if it has a powerfull turbine up front.
Although, looking at this, the C210 seems to be able to take quite some ice buildup and still maintain cruise altitude... One can assume that it was not snow covered before depature. Anybody got any idea how a 'thin' layer of clear ice impacts a rather 'classic' airfoil ?
If ice was a factor, we'll probably never will know the facts; post impact spraying of the AC by the fire dept. will probably make it hard to find any real ice related evidence....

[jan_olieslagers]

It seems I overlooked the "above" bit when discussing the meteo conditions. My fault indeed. But I think I might be forgiven, by those in the know: the sky is always clear above the clouds.

[Biggles71]

Clearsky? So what?
Do you think the ice already on the wings will magically disappear?

Sky Clear above a few hundred feet, to say that icing will not be picked up 'during take-roll and initial climb"

If ice was indeed present at the start of the take-off, this of course has nothing to do with the Sky Clear statement! Of course the Sky conditions will not get rid of the ice.

Read my post again please, and hopefully you'll get it!

Ex-SN colleague who will not take-off with ice on the wings/tail!

[sean1982]

Maybe you should all stop guessing and passing judgement on the pilot without knowing any facts! Wait for the official report and then you can talk about it.

[Biggles71]

sean1982; Good point!

[teddybAIR]

EBCI 090850Z 21003KT 1800 BR FEW002 M03/M04 Q1019 RMK R25/090071 TEMPO 0600 FZFG BKN002=

I must way I second you on that one. In the decision to depart, there are more factors at play rather than just VFR/IFR minima. The performance and equipment of the aircraft is at least as important. I know from a Brussels Airlines crew that EBCI was refused as alternate that morning due to the weather (and that with an n-1 cat IIIb aircraft!!!). 1 degree seperation between dewpoint and temperature and reported mist (BR) is a clear no go in a non anti- or deicing equiped aircraft, period.

[duke217]

So the final report wass published by CAA. No load and balance calculations were apparently done. Aircraft was overloaded by approx. 300 lbs, and worse than that, CG was far outside envelope.

[sn26567]

Official Report on the crash (in English): http://fr.scribd.com/doc/217114479/Rapp ... -Charleroi

[Flanker2]

From the report: "The pilot’s lack of airmanship skills, demonstrated by several non-compliance with the US regulation and 5 incidents and one accident during the last 250 hours, improperly addressed (learning from mistakes)."

The pilot was conducting instrument flights without a valid instrument rating.
He had a FAA instrument rating, however it wasn't valid as his FAA license was based and limited to the qualifications on his Belgian license. That the FAA added this rating on his FAA license is weird.

No one was wearing seat belts...

He got away with it until he was punished by his own destiny. It's sad that other people had to die.

But honestly, in my years in GA, I've never seen anyone completing a loadsheet before a flight, unless they were undergoing PPL training. Filling a loadsheet is just not a practice that is stressed enough and also, the standard loadsheets used in Cessna's POH's are very boring and not very easy to use.
I find that leaving a copy of the loadsheet at the ops room should be a standard practice together with filing or writing the flight plan.

With 3 toddlers on board, it's easy to think that you have enough performance left. It's a turbine 210 after all, that thing is powerful and has 700kg of useful load.

[Didymus]

Official Report on the crash (in English): http://fr.scribd.com/doc/217114479/Rapp ... -Charleroi

Hefty findings and conclusions.