Brussels Airlines new plan

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shockcooling
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Joined: 25 Jan 2007, 17:18

Re: Brussels Airlines new plan

Post by shockcooling »

Flanker2 wrote:Dear CNC, there is a difference between subsidising a low-cost airline that sells fares of 50 euo's and a high fare airlines that sells fares at 300 euro's, isn't there? FR serves the middle class while SN serves the bureaucrats and aristocrats. FR also creates jobs, etc...
No no no, I still don't agree why 50 euro tickets should be subsidised. For as long as I'm paying 30 euros for the train ticket or the airportbus.eu for 50 euros to get from ANtwerp to CRL, I just don't agree :evil: (this is madness)

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sn26567
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Re: Brussels Airlines new plan

Post by sn26567 »

For those who did not understand, FPM = Federale Participatie- en Investeringsmaatschappij, Société Fédérale de Participations et d'Investissements, Federal Holding and Investment Company, the investing arm of the Belgian Federal Government (http://www.sfpi-fpim.be/).

I do not thing that those 42 million euros (or whatever the figure) are a lost amount. It is an investment (like in the banks during the financial crisis). When the situation will improve (which is likely under the LH-led management), this money will go back to the government, the debtors and the shareholders, which could even get profits from their investment.
André
ex Sabena #26567

Pocahontas
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Joined: 27 Oct 2012, 15:26

Re: Brussels Airlines new plan

Post by Pocahontas »

I wonder if they will get C-series in the future...

airazurxtror
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Re: Brussels Airlines new plan

Post by airazurxtror »

SN : Sabena story all over again ... with the same ending ?
IF IT AIN'T BOEING, I'M NOT GOING.

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RoMax
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Re: Brussels Airlines new plan

Post by RoMax »

airazurxtror wrote:SN : Sabena story all over again ... with the same ending ?
Why so exactly?
Because of the 13 million yearly subsidy? (RYR gets many times more for less pax, or maybe this year roughly the same amount of pax)
Because of the transition of part of a loan (42,5 million from the 150+ million) to a profit share? If SN succeeds in making a profit again in the future(not so unlikely as some think), the FPM will see more money, sooner than in the case they would wait for SN to be able to pay back the debts.

Grow up.

Tomskii
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Joined: 15 Jan 2012, 11:46

Re: Brussels Airlines new plan

Post by Tomskii »

Flanker2 wrote: FR serves the middle class while SN serves the bureaucrats and aristocrats. FR also creates jobs, etc...
I'm honoured to be called a bureaucrat or aristocrat whilst I'm a student.

airazurxtror
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Re: Brussels Airlines new plan

Post by airazurxtror »

RoMax wrote: Grow up.
How old were you on 7 November 2001 ? :lol:
IF IT AIN'T BOEING, I'M NOT GOING.

OO-ITR
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Joined: 13 Aug 2011, 18:29

Re: Brussels Airlines new plan

Post by OO-ITR »

airazurxtror wrote:
RoMax wrote: Grow up.
How old were you on 7 November 2001 ? :lol:

Don't know how old RoMax was at that day but wonder how old you are TODAY? :lol:

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RoMax
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Re: Brussels Airlines new plan

Post by RoMax »

airazurxtror wrote: How old were you on 7 November 2001 ? :lol:
Besides the fact that it's none of your business, what has that anything to do with it?! Besides, growing up in that sense has nothing to do with age (or size), but more like your 'mental state'. And just as OO-ITR I really wonder how grown up you really are, if you make such a comment instead of a serious argument.

So far the personal attacks for the evening, back to business now.

cnc
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Re: Brussels Airlines new plan

Post by cnc »

airazurxtror you don't know a thing about sabena so leave it out of this discussion
hell your general knowledge of aviation is of the same level as mothers...

airazurxtror
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Joined: 17 Nov 2005, 00:00

Re: Brussels Airlines new plan

Post by airazurxtror »

How touchy, you-all boys ! :evil:
A bit insecure, are you ? Indeed, history sometimes stammer ! :lol:
IF IT AIN'T BOEING, I'M NOT GOING.

Tomskii
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Joined: 15 Jan 2012, 11:46

Re: Brussels Airlines new plan

Post by Tomskii »

airazurxtror wrote:How touchy, you-all boys ! :evil:
A bit insecure, are you ? Indeed, history sometimes stammer ! :lol:
Would you just mind to get your immaturity out of this discussion, so that the people who want to discuss this seriously can go on with what they were doing before you started trolling?

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cathay belgium
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Re: Brussels Airlines new plan

Post by cathay belgium »

Hi,

It's not that black/white..
Guess the comparison between SN then and now isn't possible but a few -?- can be placed hereby no?
Also between FR and SN subsidies,.. but guess FR as a lot lot more subsidised and for wrong reason..
bureaucrats,aristocrats? so sloganesk...
Student which use SN regarly? Daddy's rich boy or just starting a good habit?
Use them both when and for which reasons! FR isn't that bad if you use them how they should be used!
But SN isn't always the more expensive option, but people still don't see it this way,..
Still wonder how SN future will be with LH, like BD/SR! or like OS..
100 million loan isn't that much of support I would expect of a good sheppard,just my 2 cents..
CXB
New types flown 2024 : DO228, A338 , PC6

Flanker2
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Re: Brussels Airlines new plan

Post by Flanker2 »

tolipanebas wrote:Id say its exctly the opposite?

The present debt was guaranteed unrepayable for SN.
The creditors held a nice firm contract for sure, but they couldn't claim the money, or they'd risk having to a write off the money: Quite ridiculous to even have such things on the balance sheet....
However, they have now obtained drawing rights on future profits the company generates and those are not as imaginary as one may think, you know?
I'd say that is a significant revaluation of the liabilities held, hence I can tell you most creditors signed up for the rollover scheme, not just the FPM...
Once the balance sheet of SN Airholding is deposited at the NBB, you'll be able to see just now much of the outstanding debt has been rolled over and how much is only left...

BTW- this debt cancelation scheme is a copy paste of what happened at Austrian...
In fact, the entire turn around plan at SN is pretty much a copy paste of that of Austrian, so if you are looking for guidance, look to what happened at VIE.
I have experience investing capital.
From my experience, converting a loan into a share is what companies do in Chapter 11, the American bankruptcy system, when there is no other viable option to recoup your losses within acceptable amounts of time. So either the government was very generous or SN was very desperate or both.

SN is a long long long long loooooooong way from turning a profit.
Even if we are in the garden of Eden, and SN were to miraculously turn around and start making 20 million euro of annual net profits like in the best of the economy in 2007, with the government's 12.5% share in those profits, it's going to take them 20 years to get their 42 millions back.
If they liquidate SN today, they would get that back sooner.

Which brings me back to the question: why should the Belgian government forgive those loans when the largest shareholder Lufthansa doesn't contribute nearly as much?

Let's bring Ryanair back in the story. Sure Ryanair gets a huge amount of subsidies. But don't forget that Ryanair also invests money into new routes that no one ever thought would be possible nor sustainable from Belgium, allbeit with subsidies.
So they take their share of the risk in order to grow together with Wallonia and CRL.

Since LH is in control of SN, SN is going through restructuring after restructuring. There is no major evidence of growth, investments or progress. There is no plan for the future, only short-term survival in an unsustainable business model, lead by financiers who are tripping over dollars to save dimes.
Giving money away to consulting companies that tell them how they should save money at the cost of their employees.

So that 42 million is not an investment, it's a short-term bail-out.
Until they need the next one :roll:
That's the difference between the subsidies at SN and Ryanair.

SN needs to stop cutting costs in useless area's and start looking at ways to boost their revenues. The only airlines that are always making money are the airlines that have revenue under control. Ryanair do that through subisidies and marketing, SQ, CX and EK through the offering of a good product.

Pocahontas
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Re: Brussels Airlines new plan

Post by Pocahontas »

In stead of posting your brilliant knowledge and ideas here, you should use them in a professional manner, you can earn billions of Euro's. Being the only one in the world with such an aviation insight, headhunters will be on your tail for the rest of your life. Run Forrest Run!

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tolipanebas
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Re: Brussels Airlines new plan

Post by tolipanebas »

Flanker2 wrote:I have experience investing capital.
Is it of the same level as your many other professional experiences, which are extremely euh... wide ranged, so to say? The only thing which comes to mind is this: "12 stielen, 13 ongelukken". :D
Flanker2 wrote:SN is a long long long long loooooooong way from turning a profit.
Around this time last year, you flanker, were making detailed calculations to predict with much pleasure the exact date SN were going to run out of money this year: in the mean time, they have got a credit line of €100M from LH -which I can tell you needn't be repayed, but is going to be turned into shares the moment they excercise the call option- and they went through a serious debt restructuring of which you've only seen a glimpse so far, really.
If anything is shown a long long long long looooooooong way off, it's you, flanker. 8-)
Flanker2 wrote:Which brings me back to the question: why should the Belgian government forgive those loans when the largest shareholder Lufthansa doesn't contribute nearly as much?
Hold your horses till you've seen the full picture on the balance sheet: it's really not just about the FIMP, you know? But of course, they are ALL idiots, right? ;)
Flanker2 wrote:SN needs to stop cutting costs in useless area's and start looking at ways to boost their revenues.
Which is what they are doing, by investing in and expanding on long haul, but that's just silly, of course. :roll:
They'd rather start with your ridiculous idea of building a Q400 fleet serving provincial destinations in Europe multiple times daily, right? Guess what: there were a few test cases in the network, and in the time table of next summer, you'll see for yourself just how well that worked out in reality, just as much of your other ideas. :lol:

Which leads me to my end conclusion: other than total frustration and complete embitterment, there doesn't seem to be much substance nor reality to anything you post here and there certainly isn't much inside knowledge to be detected in it, much to your own frustration as a desperate wannabe aviation expert. ;)

airazurxtror
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Re: Brussels Airlines new plan

Post by airazurxtror »

Just putting the Brussels Airlines' situation in realistic perspective brings out the worse from the SN supporters, as amply demonstrated here above.
Are those guys so desperate ? Yes, and one can understand them : the situation of their favorite loss-maker airline is also rather desperate ...
Let's not be too harsh with them : they need all the compassion they can find ! :lol:
IF IT AIN'T BOEING, I'M NOT GOING.

Flanker2
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Re: Brussels Airlines new plan

Post by Flanker2 »

tolipanebas wrote:
Flanker2 wrote:I have experience investing capital.
Is it of the same level as your many other professional experiences, which are extremely euh... wide ranged, so to say? The only thing which comes to mind is this: "12 stielen, 13 ongelukken". :D
Flanker2 wrote:SN is a long long long long loooooooong way from turning a profit.
Around this time last year, you flanker, were making detailed calculations to predict with much pleasure the exact date SN were going to run out of money this year: in the mean time, they have got a credit line of €100M from LH -which I can tell you needn't be repayed, but is going to be turned into shares the moment they excercise the call option- and they went through a serious debt restructuring of which you've only seen a glimpse so far, really.
If anything is shown a long long long long looooooooong way off, it's you, flanker. 8-)
Flanker2 wrote:Which brings me back to the question: why should the Belgian government forgive those loans when the largest shareholder Lufthansa doesn't contribute nearly as much?
Hold your horses till you've seen the full picture on the balance sheet: it's really not just about the FIMP, you know? But of course, they are ALL idiots, right? ;)
Flanker2 wrote:SN needs to stop cutting costs in useless area's and start looking at ways to boost their revenues.
Which is what they are doing, by investing in and expanding on long haul, but that's just silly, of course. :roll:
They'd rather start with your ridiculous idea of building a Q400 fleet serving provincial destinations in Europe multiple times daily, right? Guess what: there were a few test cases in the network, and in the time table of next summer, you'll see for yourself just how well that worked out in reality, just as much of your other ideas. :lol:

Which leads me to my end conclusion: other than total frustration and complete embitterment, there doesn't seem to be much substance nor reality to anything you post here and there certainly isn't much inside knowledge to be detected in it, much to your own frustration as a desperate wannabe aviation expert. ;)

Well I was right wasn't I?
If they didn't invest in SN, and I remember explicitly saying that unless the Belgian government doesn't forgive the huge loan, SN would go belly-up with the losses accumulated in 2012.

So my math was right.

As to your balance sheet becoming pretty thanks to the debt reorgnaisation, it does not.
Unless SN manages to turn around its business, 2013 will see another huge loss that will eat up all the reserves built into the balance sheet this year and SN will be looking for a new bail out at the end of the year.

That's the primary issue: the business model.
they have got a credit line of €100M from LH -which I can tell you needn't be repayed, but is going to be turned into shares the moment they excercise the call option-
You have no notions of finance. If I give a loan to a company and I later decide to take over that company, the money becomes mine again. Isn't that obvious?

The big problem is that you don't know that LH will exercise those options, otherwise they wouldn't give a loan, they would just exercise their options and get it over with.

With 2 years of consecutive huge losses at SN, I would do the same as LH. Put in enough money to keep the options open, but as a loan, so that I can still get a good part of my money back when it liquidates. Most of SN assets are quite liquid so getting that money back shouldn't be too much of a problem. Addiitonally, those C-checks on the A330's bring in millions per aircraft, which is a quick way to earn part of that money back.

Getting the government to forgive the loans, also means more money for LH in case of a liquidation.
SN is becoming less and less attractive given the huge consecutive losses, lack of future prospects.

You know what that means: it's more a no than a yes. Don't keep your hopes too high.

But enough doom, keep believing in it Toli and maybe it will play out the way you want it to.

Pocahontas
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Re: Brussels Airlines new plan

Post by Pocahontas »

"Anyway, like I was sayin', shrimp is the fruit of the sea. You can barbecue it, boil it, broil it, bake it, saute it. Dey's uh, shrimp-kabobs, shrimp creole, shrimp gumbo. Pan fried, deep fried, stir-fried. There's pineapple shrimp, lemon shrimp, coconut shrimp, pepper shrimp, shrimp soup, shrimp stew, shrimp salad, shrimp and potatoes, shrimp burger, shrimp sandwich. That- that's about it. "

OO-ITR
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Re: Brussels Airlines new plan

Post by OO-ITR »

Pocahontas wrote:"Anyway, like I was sayin', shrimp is the fruit of the sea. You can barbecue it, boil it, broil it, bake it, saute it. Dey's uh, shrimp-kabobs, shrimp creole, shrimp gumbo. Pan fried, deep fried, stir-fried. There's pineapple shrimp, lemon shrimp, coconut shrimp, pepper shrimp, shrimp soup, shrimp stew, shrimp salad, shrimp and potatoes, shrimp burger, shrimp sandwich. That- that's about it. "
haha...let's not forget shrimps have no brains...that is a fact!

those who would love to see SN fail must had a very bad they when LH announced the loan of 100 mio.
Wasn't SN Brussels Airlines at the time of the start up supposed to go bankrupt after 6 months??? NEWSFLASH, they are still around. And guess what? People are talking about the great new cabin, the excellent service on board, they are winning awards... something else than a certain airline who only comes in the news with several emergency landings on one day, or employees telling about getting bullied and forced to do things they dont want to do. But I guess in this situation, and only this situation, the media is wrong. Right?

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