SN's regional network

A forum to discuss all aviation items (not for latest aviation news and military aviation news)

Moderator: Latest news team

airazurxtror
Posts: 3769
Joined: 17 Nov 2005, 00:00

Re: SN's regional network

Post by airazurxtror »

Flanker2 wrote: Crush the LCC's by offering frequencies to regional airports, that are often very sensitive to bus and train schedules, so that pax would spend 60€ more to be on your 9am flight rather than having to book a hotel to be on FR's 06:30 flight because of a lack of train/bus and no taxi cab within 5km.

This 06:30 public transportation issue is one I encounter very often with FR. If you think for a moment, this issue also occurs for people travelling from one of FR's largest bases CRL, as for instance the first trains from Brussels don't allow enough time for connecting from trains to those flights.
The first shuttle bus leaves the rue de France (near the TGV exit of the Brussels Midi railway station) at 4 am, in time for the first FR flight (I think it's the 06.20 to Bergamo).
http://www.voyages-lelan.be/xml/page.ht ... =fr&IDC=77
IF IT AIN'T BOEING, I'M NOT GOING.

User avatar
Atlantis
Posts: 5577
Joined: 12 Apr 2005, 00:00

Re: SN's regional network

Post by Atlantis »

Flanker2 wrote:I like the idea of the "Express" division.
I think that "my wild thought" can work if they have the balls to try it.
Small airplanes to use at a very high frequency to important regional and bigger airports with short turnarounds. Get rid of this business class on those flights because they are not used.

Prices are ridiculous. I'm using SN very often and many times business class is always empty. Who wants to pay 900 euro for a short trip. Not in those difficult economic times.

Economy plus and regular economy instead of B-Flex and B-light which is just a joke

User avatar
RoMax
Posts: 4463
Joined: 20 Jun 2009, 16:32

Re: SN's regional network

Post by RoMax »

Atlantis wrote: Economy plus and regular economy instead of B-Flex and B-light which is just a joke
A light LCC product (b.light, but more extreme and with sharper prices) and regular economy looks the best choice to me. Nobody wants to pay for business class, certain people really want to pay for a regular economy, but probably even more people do not care about any service on such short flights, so a cheap offering without extra's would be good.

Inquirer
Posts: 2095
Joined: 14 Feb 2012, 14:30

Re: SN's regional network

Post by Inquirer »

So do we simply skip the all important question, i.e. "does all this fit the strategy of the shareholders?" then?

Unless you first set the financial framework right, there's not much use in painting the rest of the picture: it's the world upside down. IMHO, B.air is NOT about being an airline serving the regions.

On the other issue: I am pretty sure C is there for connecting purposes only: I for one wouln't like to pay for a C class long haul ticket and be downgraded to Y for the connector flight, so ending C means killing off the most lucrative long haul passenger demands. If I am right, C came back a couple of years ago, IMHO because of the shift away from a stand alone airline towards being part of a larger group with more emphasis on long haul passengers and their needs.

Turning B.air into a second Air Dolomiti like some above would like to do, just isn't the plan of LH.
As Air Dolomiti aren't exactly venturing far outside their home regions, and if we really want to see B.air go to African destinations, the USA or beyond, then maybe them not being another regional Air Dolomiti isn't such a bad thing indeed?

Once again: no insult is ment here, but I find that a lot of comments from above are deprived of the bigger picture. Clearly not many people have a clue about what working for the management of a multinational is all about: otherwise they'd not come up with scenario's which look good from a stand alone point of view, but bring little or no value for the larger entity which you are part of, sometimes even on the contrary.

JOVAN
Posts: 488
Joined: 08 Jun 2006, 00:00

Re: SN's regional network

Post by JOVAN »

Inquirer wrote:So do we simply skip the all important question, i.e. "does all this fit the strategy of the shareholders?" then?

Unless you first set the financial framework right, there's not much use in painting the rest of the picture: it's the world upside down. IMHO, B.air is NOT about being an airline serving the regions.

While of course we must respect the big shareholder and respected LH Group, we cannot deny that they have made quite a few strategic blunders:
- LH Italia
- BMI
- Spanair

They also recently stopped agreements with Augsburg Airlines and other Regionals, and put all their hope on GermanWings now... Wait and see??.

Things can change quickly.

A good crisis can change things again.
Or a new CEO at the top of LH.


Remains the fact that SN's EU and regional network is very amateuristic.
There are very few good connections from EU to EU, and even connections from big potential markets as Nice, Venice, Madrid, Turin... are UNATTRACTIVE.

Somebody has to clean that mess up, first.

I cannot imagine LH is happy with such a poorly performing system??

User avatar
Atlantis
Posts: 5577
Joined: 12 Apr 2005, 00:00

Re: SN's regional network

Post by Atlantis »

Inquirer wrote:So do we simply skip the all important question, i.e. "does all this fit the strategy of the shareholders?" then?
First I'm glad that LH take a share in SN to take them away of a bigger fiasco but what I can see lately is not in favor of SN or Brussels Airport. On the contrary.
Via SN LH is manipulating the market now to take away as much as possible clients from BRU to transport them via FRA, DUS or MUC. This is not in the benefit of the customer.
The best example. SN dropped WAW and KRK. Now pax has to go via FRA or MUC at prices who are unbelievable. Some while ago I could fly with SN for only 95 euro in return while it is now more then 500 euro!!!!!! Who will pay that.
LH can be good, but how they handle, hmhm I have my doubts about it. Since long time I'm thinking about the time that SN was flying under the wings of LX. I hope it will not be the same.
Inquirer wrote: On the other issue: I am pretty sure C is there for connecting purposes only: I for one wouln't like to pay for a C class long haul ticket and be downgraded to Y for the connector flight, so ending C means killing off the most lucrative long haul passenger demands. If I am right, C came back a couple of years ago, IMHO because of the shift away from a stand alone airline towards being part of a larger group with more emphasis on long haul passengers and their needs.
For long haul I'm flying in C. Even when I have to take a connection via LHR to take this, to and from LHR I'm flying in Y. And this I can see that it is a general habit now. A lot of pax in Y I can meed them again in C on the connection flight. We don't have this "air" that we want to fly the whole ride in C. Why, to pay rediculous prices in C on a short flight where service is, be honest, not like it should be and certainly not to what you pay for.
Inquirer wrote: Once again: no insult is ment here, but I find that a lot of comments from above are deprived of the bigger picture. Clearly not many people have a clue about what working for the management of a multinational is all about: otherwise they'd not come up with scenario's which look good from a stand alone point of view, but bring little or no value for the larger entity which you are part of, sometimes even on the contrary.
Hmm mr Inquirer, think before you write something like this. With my experience in working at the airport, with working afterwards for a very big multinational, with working for companies who were in a big crisis, I know what I'm talking about.

And second there is a big difference. We are not bashing here at SN. No, not at all, we only, and some other also have experience in aviation, we could add something what maybe can help this company. From time to time they don't even see the simple solution.
You wrote that SN is not an airline who can't fly to regions. Can you tell us why? Those regions are full of potential customers like Rotterdam, Orly and many others. And you know, those regions are asking for direct connections with BRU. Rotterdam is also asking for it lately. when there is a demand, there is potentional.
If it don't fit to the strategy of LH then they are sick and have not good intentions with SN. You know why? Because they started by themself lately a direct link to Rotterdam.

Inquirer
Posts: 2095
Joined: 14 Feb 2012, 14:30

Re: SN's regional network

Post by Inquirer »

Atlantis wrote:Via SN LH is manipulating the market now to take away as much as possible clients from BRU to transport them via FRA, DUS or MUC. This is not in the benefit of the customer.The best example. SN dropped WAW and KRK.
Oké, they are significant markets no longer served by Brussels and that will likely have its reasons.
The opposite has happened too: Scandinavian colleagues of mine now fly to BRU to go to BRS because there are no longer (direct) Lufthansa flights from FRA for instance. (they used to fly SAS to FRA, then LH to BRS)
Which is why I say it's all part of a bigger internal rationalisation process and yes, that will mean less direct flights sadly. If we want frequency in future, it seems we will have to compromise on the routing sometimes: as a multinational, you just can't increase your efficiency and drive down your costs compared to your competitors, if you don't consolidate and make use of your size benefit: simple as that.
Atlantis wrote:Hmm mr Inquirer, think before you write something like this. With my experience in working at the airport, with working afterwards for a very big multinational, with working for companies who were in a big crisis, I know what I'm talking about.
I am not questioning anyvbody's knowledge, just noticing there seems to be an awful lot of people around here who think that somehow Brussels Airlines should be accomodated by its shareholders to do all things it sees a market for, even though the shareholders are often doing them already through more established brands they also own: please note how that doesn't make much sense, does it?
Better have Brussels concentrate on things which are new and thus provide new revenue sources, rather than just wasting time and money on shifting revenues between the diffferent branches and entities owned by its shareholders, especially as it would require heavy investments to achieve that and you also risk distroying yields in the competitive process that follows the period when an established brand vacates the playing field.
Atlantis wrote:We are not bashing here at SN. No, not at all, we only, and some other also have experience in aviation, we could add something what maybe can help this company. From time to time they don't even see the simple solution.
As I've already tried to make clear: consider the bigger picture.
Things will make far more sense and often provide you with an obvious answer as to why certain things are just the way they are and not the way you (and I) would like them to be.
Maybe it would be a good 'self-check' to see if what is propose isn't already done by others within the group and in case the answer is no, whether it can't likely be done cheaper by any other either?
If the answer is no two times, then you may have a good suggestion to which shareholders are going to be receptive, but the idea of building a regional European network at BRU when you have a huge hub like FRA just next door which can offer much more feeding opportunities and has much of that regional network already in place, seems not to fall in that category, expect maybe for some additional UK or French regional airports which are missing from the LH group time table.
Atlantis wrote:You wrote that SN is not an airline who can't fly to regions. Can you tell us why? Those regions are full of potential customers like Rotterdam, Orly and many others. And you know, those regions are asking for direct connections with BRU. Rotterdam is also asking for it lately. when there is a demand, there is potentional.
As you say: the opportunity is now filled by Lufthansa which can connect RTM to I maybe ten times more European destinations and 20 times more long haul destinations than at BRU, so why should they have given RTM to Brussels and not to Lufthansa? I'd really like to see a convincing argument for that, if you please?
Atlantis wrote:If it don't fit to the strategy of LH then they are sick and have not good intentions with SN.
But sir, you can't expect Lufthansa to simply close their shop and move everything to Brussels, just because they have invested in them, can you? Whatever comes to BRU must make more sense than when done by themselves or by other airlines they own, otherwise it will go elsewhere: simple as that.
You say you work for a multinational? In that case, what I am saying should ring a large bell to you, because any company running different production sites at once has the same balancing act to undertake.

Air Key West
Posts: 1107
Joined: 23 Jun 2007, 20:51
Location: BRU

Re: SN's regional network

Post by Air Key West »

Atlantis wrote:For long haul I'm flying in C. Even when I have to take a connection via LHR to take this, to and from LHR I'm flying in Y. And this I can see that it is a general habit now. A lot of pax in Y I can meed them again in C on the connection flight. We don't have this "air" that we want to fly the whole ride in C. Why, to pay rediculous prices in C on a short flight where service is, be honest, not like it should be and certainly not to what you pay for.
:?:

You cannot be serious (sorry) : you say you buy two separate tickets for an intercontinental trip ? For the European "part" of the trip, an economy ticket, and for the long-haul part, a C tkt ? My experience is that if you buy a C ticket for an intercontinental journey with a connection anywhere in Europe, it's cheaper to buy ONE ticket with all segments in C than two separate tickets (Y + C). Not only is it cheaper nine times out of ten, but it gives your additional perks and comfort on the European legs of the trip, but it's also "safer". If you buy two separate tickets even with the same airline, you have entered into two separate transportation contracts. For instance, if you fly BA to LHR and back on an economy ticket and even BA on a second ticket in C class to, for instance, Tokyo or Sao Paulo, you will be totally dependind on BA's good will to accommodate your onward travel from LHR if their flight from BRU to LHR is delayed or canceled and you miss your connection, because on your first (economy) ticket, BA only has the obligation to make sure that you get to and from London. If you have all parts of your journey in one ticket, BA (for instance) has the obligation to make sure (at their expense) that you get to your final destination (outside Europe in this case) if their flight to LHR is delayed or canceled and you miss the connection. And honestly, if you do some proper research, you'll find out that what you are doing is not cheaper, or the difference in price (if there really is one) does not justify the additional "risks". (My experience).
In favor of quality air travel.

Air Key West
Posts: 1107
Joined: 23 Jun 2007, 20:51
Location: BRU

Re: SN's regional network

Post by Air Key West »

Inquirer wrote:So do we simply skip the all important question, i.e. "does all this fit the strategy of the shareholders?" then?
Absolutely right, but please allow us also to express ideas and suggestions in what is a discussion forum. We're not sitting in the Board room here, and this forum should be fun for all as a way of exchanging ideas, and as the English say : sometimes "let's agree to disagree" (and let's try and remain gentlemen).
Inquirer wrote:On the other issue: I am pretty sure C is there for connecting purposes only: I for one wouln't like to pay for a C class long haul ticket and be downgraded to Y for the connector flight, so ending C means killing off the most lucrative long haul passenger demands.
I fully agree.
RoMax wrote:LX, OS and LH are using the same seats
Yes, indeed and that's why I'm now avoiding them because of the lack of comfort. Being self-employed, I'm of course privileged not to be bound by a "corporate contract" between my employer and an airline.
In favor of quality air travel.

Air Key West
Posts: 1107
Joined: 23 Jun 2007, 20:51
Location: BRU

Re: SN's regional network

Post by Air Key West »

A general and personal comment on regional or intra-European flights : I'm totally prepared to forego any catering (except for free water) as long as I get a comfortable seat (by that I mean : not a "wooden chair" slim seat and not just a 30" seat pitch ; give us back the 32" which used to be the standard before everybody started to imitate LCCs. The more full-service-carriers will look like LCCs, the more people like me who have (nearly) always avoided LCCs, will be tempted to switch to LCCs, because they will mostly remain cheaper with very little difference in terms of service.
In favor of quality air travel.

A330
Posts: 51
Joined: 10 Jul 2012, 22:15

Re: SN's regional network

Post by A330 »

Inquirer wrote:but the idea of building a regional European network at BRU when you have a huge hub like FRA just next door which can offer much more feeding opportunities and has much of that regional network already in place, seems not to fall in that category, expect maybe for some additional UK or French regional airports which are missing from the LH group time table.
Inquirer wrote:As you say: the opportunity is now filled by Lufthansa which can connect RTM to I maybe ten times more European destinations and 20 times more long haul destinations than at BRU, so why should they have given RTM to Brussels and not to Lufthansa? I'd really like to see a convincing argument for that, if you please?
I get your point. But on the other hand, following this line of reasoning means that it's almost always better to have flights go through FRA (or MUC, or ZRH). But I don't see it possible to make SN succesful only with long-haul connections to Africa, without the European network. A network only for feeding long-haul is not enough. With all long-haul in the morning (or till 2pm), that would mean you could practically ground the fleet for the rest of the day. I say that is not what they have in mind, they need to find solutions for that. And we are of course free to discuss that (keeping the overall picture in mind, to some extent).
There are different sides to this discussion: what markets is SN better suited for, what aircraft are best to operate these routes, at what frequencies, what should be their product (b.light, b.flex, economy no frills, economy, C), along with that their pricing, internal organisation and cost structure/base. Together these define the future of SN, and what direction they (and LH Group) have planned to go forward in. Quite fundamental I think.
Back to the network, probably SN and BRU are better positioned to connect airports both located in western Europe (UK, France), southwest (Spain, Portugal). Perhaps also Scandinavia, but SN is not really big there (only OSL, CPH, GOT, BMA).

Air Key West
Posts: 1107
Joined: 23 Jun 2007, 20:51
Location: BRU

Re: SN's regional network

Post by Air Key West »

You're absolutely right. Sometimes, I'm fearing that SN (in a worst case scenario) will in the end only operate intra-European flights during the mornings (offering both nonstop flights to/from BRU and connections to the intercontinental network) and whoever will want to travel in the afternoon or evening will have to go through a major hub. Things have just changed a little bit at AF with the opening of regional bases, but AF has always wanted its pax from French regions to (mainly) connect at CDG, meaning that the airline expected its pax to fly, for instance, from NCE to MAD by backtracking through CDG (and AF's strategy was successful with considerable profits until recently). I sincererly hope this is not what's going to happen at SN, but it might fit LH's (Franz's) strategy (no more direct SN flights, for instance, BRU MAD, but BRU FRA MAD in the afternoons and evenings). Am I completely crazy or paranoid or could it be the unfortunate fate of SN ?
In favor of quality air travel.

User avatar
sn26567
Posts: 41175
Joined: 13 Feb 2003, 00:00
Location: Rosières/Rozieren, Belgium
Contact:

Re: SN's regional network

Post by sn26567 »

This strategy would be stupid if there are enough O&D passengers to justify afternoon and evening flights, e.g. to destinations like GVA, MAD, CPH or even BER.
André
ex Sabena #26567

Flanker2
Posts: 1745
Joined: 05 Dec 2012, 23:15

Re: SN's regional network

Post by Flanker2 »

Perhaps also Scandinavia, but SN is not really big there (only OSL, CPH, GOT, BMA).
This is actually a market that I've been neglecting.
There are quite some opportunities in the Scandinavian regional markets.

If we only take Norway as an example, it's almost breath-taking to see that 15 airports have over 1000 pax per day. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_airports_in_Norway

So if you establish a one-stop network through BRU, you could connect any of those 15 airports to anywhere in Europe and to the SN and codeshare longhaul network at BRU. So then the routes to the U.S. start making sense, because yields on a JFK-bound passenger starting his journey in a regional airport in a lost corner of Norway are much much higher than a passenger starting his journey in BCN or LHR where SN needs to compete with 20 other airlines for the same pax.


To enhance the discussion, I'm going to talk about another aircraft type, the EMB120ER.
Horror, it's another turboprop.
30 pax, 350kg/hour cruise fuel burn at 550km/h, 1700km range, cheap to buy/lease, also available as brand new aircraft.
You cut a Q400 in 2.5 pieces, it's an EMB120ER.

For some routes where the Q400 is too much aircraft, it may make more sense to operate the EMB120.
In Belgium and within the current SN, you can find plenty of pilots and mechanics with experience on the type.

Image

You would see a dozen of these beautiful birds parked on BRU's aprons in the early 1990's, it was quite an impressive sight.

User avatar
RoMax
Posts: 4463
Joined: 20 Jun 2009, 16:32

Re: SN's regional network

Post by RoMax »

SN will have a hell of time to compete with KLM which serves Oslo, Alesund (as from April), Bergen, Kristiansand, Sandefjord, Stavanger and Trondheim. All of them at least double daily F70 I believe. Scandinavia and in special Norway is seriously dominated by KLM. I don't see the advantage of taking SN over KLM out of Norway when you want to connect to Europe or the rest of the world.
You still have Bodø en Tromsø for exemple, but they are located seriously to the North, making it difficult to operate it (profitable) with a regional jet (probably also keeping KLM away from these two airports).

User avatar
sn26567
Posts: 41175
Joined: 13 Feb 2003, 00:00
Location: Rosières/Rozieren, Belgium
Contact:

Re: SN's regional network

Post by sn26567 »

RoMax wrote:I don't see the advantage of taking SN over KLM out of Norway when you want to connect to Europe or the rest of the world.
Perhaps the fact that SN is in the same alliance as their flagship carrier SAS?
André
ex Sabena #26567

Inquirer
Posts: 2095
Joined: 14 Feb 2012, 14:30

Re: SN's regional network

Post by Inquirer »

sn26567 wrote:
RoMax wrote:I don't see the advantage of taking SN over KLM out of Norway when you want to connect to Europe or the rest of the world.
Perhaps the fact that SN is in the same alliance as their flagship carrier SAS?
But then SAS isn't even codesharing with brussels on the existing routes!
BTW, Lufthansa does serve Bergen and Stavanger from FRA multiple daily already, so again: I don't see the point in brussels competing internally. It's again a pointless battle when taking the bigger picture into consideration if you consider austrian/brussels/lufthansa/swiss as one airline.
If one absolutely wants to add a few more regional routes, I'd look at places that aren't served yet!
Maybe in France, as none of the other carriers from above penetrates deeply there.
Also, I'd expect the number of passengers continuing to Central Africa to be higher from French regional airports than from Norwegian regional airports, so any Board will be more inclined to sign off on a French regional airport than on a flight to e.g. Stavanger, aimed at competing with the exisiting LH flights there.

User avatar
RoMax
Posts: 4463
Joined: 20 Jun 2009, 16:32

Re: SN's regional network

Post by RoMax »

sn26567 wrote:
RoMax wrote:I don't see the advantage of taking SN over KLM out of Norway when you want to connect to Europe or the rest of the world.
Perhaps the fact that SN is in the same alliance as their flagship carrier SAS?
As said by Inquirer, SN and SAS don't even codeshare on the existing routes (SN only has codeshares in Sweden with Malmo Aviation). SAS will not help SN to send pax from regional Scandinavian airports through BRU, SAS wants that these pax come through their own hubs.
The regional destinations that do make sense are already served by LH through Germany.

So I don't see a lot of oppertunities for SN in Norway/Scandinavia.

JOVAN
Posts: 488
Joined: 08 Jun 2006, 00:00

Re: SN's regional network

Post by JOVAN »

RoMax wrote:
sn26567 wrote:
RoMax wrote:I don't see the advantage of taking SN over KLM out of Norway when you want to connect to Europe or the rest of the world.
Perhaps the fact that SN is in the same alliance as their flagship carrier SAS?
As said by Inquirer, SN and SAS don't even codeshare on the existing routes (SN only has codeshares in Sweden with Malmo Aviation). SAS will not help SN to send pax from regional Scandinavian airports through BRU, SAS wants that these pax come through their own hubs.
The regional destinations that do make sense are already served by LH through Germany.

So I don't see a lot of oppertunities for SN in Norway/Scandinavia.
No codesharing with LOT, not with SAS,TK, TAP...
What is the use of being in an Alliance ?.
What is the benefit for the Passenger (=Client) ?

cnc
Posts: 1311
Joined: 19 May 2009, 16:14

Re: SN's regional network

Post by cnc »

fellow alliance partners are indeed more competing then working together.
after all the own airline comes before the good of the alliance

Post Reply